UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD
WASHINGTON, D.C.

PUBLIC HEARING IN CONNECTION WITH THE
INVESTIGATION OF AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT
KOREAN AIR
FLIGHT 801, B-747-300
AGANA, GUAM
AUGUST 6, 1997

Hawaii Convention Center
Ballroom A, B and C
1833 Kalakaua Avenue
Honolulu, Hawaii 96815
Wednesday, March 25, 1998
9:00 a.m.

Chairman, Board of Inquiry
THE HONORABLE ROBERT T. FRANCIS

Board of Inquiry

Technical Panel

Public Information Officer

General Counsel

Parties to the Hearing

A G E N D A

AGENDA ITEM:

Calling of Witnesses, Witnesses Sworn and Qualified by the Hearing Officer, and Witness Questioning

Afternoon Session
Continuation of Witness Questioning

P R O C E E D I N G S

9:00 a.m.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Could we get everyone to sit down, please, and we'll get started?

(Pause)

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Our next witness starting out this morning will be Captain Lee, flight operation -- flight -- flight crew operation of Korea Air.

Whereupon,

was called as a witness, and first having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

TESTIMONY OF
CAPTAIN LEE, JUNG TAEK
FLIGHT CREW OPERATION
KOREAN AIR
SEOUL, KOREA

MR. SCHLEEDE: Captain Lee, please state your full name and business address for the record?

(Captain Lee's responses in Korean are transcribed herein verbatim from the English translation.)

THE WITNESS: Yes, my name is Jung Taek Lee, and my business address is Korean Air Building locatedat -- Seoul, Korea.

MR. SCHLEEDE: And what is your present position with Korean Air?

THE WITNESS: I am currently a pilot at the Korean Air for Boeing 747 Classic, and also, I am a pilot instructor, SLS -- for chief pilot, the highest ranking -- third-level highest ranking -- pilot.

MR. SCHLEEDE: Thank you very much. Captain Misencik will begin the questioning.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Good morning, Captain Lee.

THE WITNESS: Good morning.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: How long have you been a -- with Korean Airlines, sir?

THE WITNESS: I have been working for Korean Air starting May 1985.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: How long have you been an instructor with Korean Air on the 747?

THE WITNESS: I was first appointed to the position of instructor pilot for Boeing 747 in April 1996.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Are you qualified to instruct both on the airplane and on the simulator?

THE WITNESS: Let me start. Generally speaking or as a matter of principle, instructor pilot is qualified to teach both simulator and the actualaircraft. However -- however, in the case of Boeing 747 Classic simulation instruction is sourced out to contractors. They -- they are dedicated instructors hired from outside. And in-house instructor pilots handle aircraft instruction.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: How often do you instruct in the simulator?

THE WITNESS: I believe it's less than five times a year simulator training.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: What are your duties as a instructor in the airplane? What do you mostly do as a instructor?

THE WITNESS: The duties of an instructor pilot is to train pilots assigned to me, for example, for simulator and actual aircraft instruction.

(Pause)

THE WITNESS: Okay. The interpreter interjection was to clarify one technical term, which -- which was answered as examiner pilot.

Part of my duty -- additional duties is to refer the pilot who has completed the training to the examiner pilot.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: During your experience as a simulator and aircraft instructor, what percentage of these training events are observed by the KCAB?

THE WITNESS: Let me first tell you about the case of the simulator training. First of all, we are not doing a whole lot of simulator training while I was in charge of that responsibility. I -- I do not have any recollection of the inspection on the part of the KCAB.

So, let me go on to answer with respect to aircraft training. I did receive spot checks from KCAB or a spot check from KCAB.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Do you have a recollection for what percentage of your airplane rides were observed by the KCAB?

THE WITNESS: Well, sitting here off the top of my head I can't recall the precise percentages. However, let me try to give you as best answer as I can. However, according to my personal recollection I received about three to four checks each year.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Captain Lee, are you aware if the -- any of the KCAB inspectors that oversee Korean Air are type-rated on the 747 Classic and are current?

THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. My understanding is that there are two of them at KCAB.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Two -- you say two instruct -- inspectors that are current and qualifiedon the 747 Classic? Is that what you said?

THE WITNESS: I want to double check my --the question. The way I heard it was that whether there were -- there are two inspectors with the KCAB who holds 7247 -- 747 type-rating. Is that correct?

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Yes. Are they -- are the KCAB examiners or the KCAB inspectors current and qualified on 747 Classic airplanes? The -- the examiners or inspectors that oversee Korean Airlines or Korean Air, I'm sorry.

THE WITNESS: I do not know as to what type of type-ratings they may have.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Okay. Captain Lee, discussing briefings and checklists now, are approach briefings required by Korean Air in all circumstances?

THE WITNESS: Yes, approach briefing is to be done under any -- in any cases. It's an absolute must.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: What is Korean Air's goal in requiring an approach briefing? What is the intent? I'll further clarify. Which approach is required to be briefed upon arrival at -- at an airport?

THE WITNESS: Approach briefing is absolutely necessary for the sake of safe landing of an aircraft. In addition, a pilot must have constantly watch out on the weather conditions and the traffic conditions atthe destination airport. In addition, a pilot must also keep it under consideration that in case the situation at the destination airport becomes so bad that wouldn't allow safe landing. Hence, as a result, a diversion or deviation may be necessary. The pilot must also carefully review airport's approach charts.

The pilot must also have a detailed discussion as to division of labor or division of business responsibilities for -- with respect to approach as well as landing. The approach briefing should be done prior to TOB briefing.

INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. Interpreter interjection. Let me correct my mistranslation. Not TOB but TOD.

THE WITNESS: In doing so, the underlying intention of these efforts are to ensure safe landing of the aircraft.

Let me tell you some specifics of the approach briefing that we practice. We receive information based on ATIS, A-T-I-S, and NOTAMS that we receive from the destination airport. We check, review, and conduct briefing as to the expected approach methods based on the A-T-I-S information that we receive from the destination airport. That's all.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: If a pilot anticipates avisual approach, what approach briefing would he give if the ATIS, A-T-I-S, indicates a -- an instrument approach is the approach in use?

THE WITNESS: A pilot is supposed to review and have a briefing of the information from the A-T-I-S.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: -- referring to Exhibit 2N, 2 November. If we could put that on the screen?

Captain Lee, if you could -- this is the approach for ILS runway 6-left that was in effect on August the 6th, 1997. If you could indicate to us what a -- a briefing for an approach ILS 6-left localizer, glide slope out of service would -- would be like according to Korean Air procedures, please?

THE WITNESS: This can be kind of a complex answer, so let me give you one segment -- let me give an answer segment by segment about the landing briefing.

First of all, we put in front of us the expected approach briefing charts and open it. In the other hand we hold this landing briefing card inside the cockpit as shown on this overhead projector transparency picture. Briefing is done when all the rest of the crew are in a position to concentrate on that.

Let me give you an example of briefing. Number one, weather. You'll see here A-T-I-S uniform coming up. Wind calm, visibility seven miles, scattered 1600, temperature 27, altimeter 296 -- 29 --2986, glide slope out of service.

Number two, star. As to TOD, the current altitude is 41,000, so we'll start descending 17 minutes before the airport. Number one and number two, Nimitz VOR indicates 11.3 -- oh, let me -- 115.3. There is no particular altitude speed restriction. There isn't any arrival route.

Number three, using runway, type of approach, type of transition. Using runway indicates 6-left. Type of approach is localized approach. The transition level indicates 180.

Number four, review of instrument approach procedure. Here we perform briefing of the applicable chart -- chart. The airport name is Agana Airport. Chart number 11-1. Issue date August 2, 1997. The effective date is August 15. Minimum safe altitude is 2200 feet. Airport elevation is 279 feet. This chart is a DME requirement chart. DME can be -- the DME is acquired or emanating from Nimitz VOR. It is a type of arc approach. The initial approach fix hammer, seven, DME. It is a seven-mile arc.

When the 259 radar is passed from Nimitz VOR, number one, ascends 110.3 to the localized brief. Number three and number -- number -- number one and number two are both sets course 603.

Let me tell you a little bit about the current profile. 2600 feet maintained until the arc is drawn. 2000 feet up to final approach six or 1.6 DME. 1440 feet up to VOR air space or a sky. 2.8 DME for missed approach point. 256 feet with respect to the elevation prior to touchdown.

Missed approach procedure is climb to 2600, turn right via Nimitz VOR, radio 242 to Flake. And hold -- hold to southwest. Right turn. 062 in-bound. MDA is 560 feet. Time to map is one minute 50 seconds to the final approach fix point.

In -- in the event of a missed approach --let me come back to that issue later on. Instead, let me go on to number five, crew's action and call out.

PNF call fixable altitude --

INTERPRETER: interpreter interjection. Let me retranslate it. PNF, please call fixed altitude.

THE WITNESS: Call DME as well. When missed approach is performed I'm going to call a call-around call and flap 20 call. Flight engineer, please set thrust to go around. PNF, please set to flap 20. Whenpositive climb, landing gear up by order. By order set IES -- I'm sorry. Let me correct my mistranslation. IAS.

After you go up to 2600 feet, set right turn heading to 270. Also set number one localizer frequency to VOR as well. Go to Flake and execute parallel entry. If there is any deviation whatsoever during approach, please advise me.

Number six, parking spot and taxiways. I'll do re-briefing upon receiving any relevant information.

Number seven, other abnormal conditions and configurations. If any abnormalities should take place during flight, then whoever spots it first advise me, please. I'll take action based on the checklist. Are there any questions? That's all.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Thank you, Captain, for the sample briefing. What you described to us, is that a standard briefing according to Korean Air procedures that you could expect every crew to perform?

THE WITNESS: This is the standard briefing that we teach.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: When you mentioned the --the time for the missed -- for the missed approach to the missed approach point, when the missed approach point is based on DME as it is on this particularapproach we were talking about, would you expect the flight crew to still time the -- the final approach segment?

THE WITNESS: From final approach point to missed approach point the primary is 2.8 DME and the time is based on the ground speed as shown down below, one minute and 53 seconds.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: In this case, would you expect the flight crew to also start a timer to time the -- the final segment?

THE WITNESS: Timing starts at the point of passing the final approach point.

(Pause)

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: We'd like to clarify the question to Mr. -- to Captain Lee, with your permission, Mr. Chairman.

(First Officer Chung spoke to Captain Lee in Korean.)

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I misunderstood the question. Yes, timing has to be done.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: During the approach briefing, checking the dates and currency of the approach plates, is that standard procedure at Korean Air?

THE WITNESS: Yes, that's the case.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Captain Lee, non-precision approaches, are they normally hand-flown or flown using the autopilot?

THE WITNESS: It is entirely up to the judgment of the instructor pilot whether either hand-fly -- hand-flying or autopilot mode is to be used. However, in the initial period of flight for the sake of flight control -- better control, manual flying mode is more frequently practiced. That is for the initial phase of the training process. For the later stage of the training process auto -- the autopilot mode is more frequently instructed.

When manual flight is being executed, it starts from under altitude 10,000 feet. When the weather condition is IMC, then the autopilot's mode is suggested -- recommended. The use of autopilot indicates a non-precision. It's limited to MDA only. That's all.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Do Korean Air procedures require that the correct navigation frequency is tuned and identified?

THE WITNESS: Yes, it is a requirement, and that's the responsibilities of all the crews -- all the crew involved.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: What is Korean Air policyregarding reading back clearances? As in the case of Flight 801, would Korean Air policy require the crew to read back "glide slope unusable"?

(The following conversation between Captain Lee and the interpreter took place partly in English and partly in Korean.)

INTERPRETER: -- take over landing -- take over --

CAPTAIN LEE: Take off.

INTERPRETER: Oh, take off --

CAPTAIN LEE: Take off clearance landing, clearance runway, cross clearance.

(Pause)

INTERPRETER: Why don't you please -- court reporter, why don't you take it directly from the witness?

CAPTAIN LEE: Genuine clearance or suitable clearance --

INTERPRETER: Assuming that the court reporter typed the first part, the important clearance has to be done in terms of numerical representation.

(Resumption of translation)

THE WITNESS: Especially the important clearance, especially that involved the number --numerical numbers that you have to read back. Involving take-off clearance, you must read back. And also, the -- the clearance that involved the numbers you must read back. And also, the others that -- the requirement by ATC you must read back fully. But also, when we receive the clearance and we are not sure expecting the controller going to give us the confirmation we instruct our pilots to read back as you heard.

In case of Korean Airline 801 in clearance the "glide slope unusable" is the additional information. In general, if you knew this additional information you don't need to read back. But in this case -- in this case it's after the -- there's additional information or not, the read-back could be really different. In other words, this is very important information. In this case, in order to confirm you like to read back -- you must read back. That's all.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Captain Lee, what is Korean Air policy regarding a pilot following a navigational indication that has been reported inoperative or unusable? How should a pilot regard a glide slope indication that may appear normal to him but has been reported unusable or inoperative?

THE WITNESS: If he received this informationof "glide slope unusable," then he must not use the --that instrument or that -- that glide slope.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Captain Lee, in non-precision approaches, is it Korean Air policy to use step-downs or a constant descent for the approach?

THE WITNESS: Basically, we are teaching them to use a step-down method. But when the weather condition is BMC and also pilot -- when pilot select the medial -- medium altimeters -- altitude and also in the condition that he or she will maintain the above the altitude he might choose the constant lower-down for the passengers' sakes. But what we emphasize is he must maintain the -- the chart-depicted altitude. That -- that's all.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Are there specific training scenarios for constant descent approaches?

(Pause)

THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question again, please?

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Yes. Are there training scenarios or profiles in the simulator which teach constant descent technique?

THE WITNESS: As I said earlier that basically the -- the training is -- that basically when we training we teach them to step down.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Captain Lee, has Korean Air considered the monitored approach technique for instrument approaches?

THE WITNESS: We were introduced to this monitored approach method but we didn't take that as our approach method. We decide the PF is choose the approach and landing. But all -- PIC can take over the any time in this -- during this period -- period for the safety. That -- that's all.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: During flight checks, check rides, and other evaluations, are the PNF and the flight engineer also being evaluated?

THE WITNESS: Yes, in case of the simulator they are evaluated at the same time. But when it's in the airplane check it's up to their individual schedule they are evaluated officially. But also, that means the PNF or flight engineering is be evaluated or checked by second-handedly. That's -- that's all.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: During check rides are pilots evaluated for their approach briefings?

THE WITNESS: Yes, they're evaluated.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Captain Lee, in training could you describe the roles of the PF and the PNF during a non-precision approach both with autopilot on and autopilot off, what their specific duties areaccording to Korean Air procedures?

THE WITNESS: I will tell you the -- the first -- the autopilot on, in case of autopilot on. PF's supposed to control -- take over all the --control by himself -- I mean for himself. But some part of it he can order to PNF. A PNF supposed to implemented the ordered the job. But the rest of the crew who doesn't hold the control switch or who doesn't touch the control switch or the -- nothing to do with airplane flight, then they supposed to monitor.

Then I'll tell you the autopilot off. PF basically ordered all the related matters. PNF supposed to implemented all the ordered -- ordered matters. And also, PNF's supposed to advise PF if there's a -- a certain matter that's skipped by PF. That's it.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Which pilot states or sets the next step-down altitude in a non-precision approach?

THE WITNESS: In the case of autopilot on, PF's supposed to do it. But when it's autopilot off then by the PF's order, PNF's supposed to do it. But also, I mentioned earlier that even though in case of autopilot on a PF can order the PNF. That's it.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: What is the procedure forusing the altitude-select window for step-downs in a non-precision approach?

THE WITNESS: Your question regarding only the altitude window or --

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: The altitude select, A-L-T S-E-L window selecting the altitude.

THE WITNESS: In case of descending I will tell you. PF set not only the altitude window but also set the altitude regarding the information that he received from A-T-I-S.

I'm sorry. There's a misinterpretation. I'm not sure I got this one right or not, but PF set the altitude above the altitude that he received in window. I'm sorry. I think I -- I --

PF's supposed to set the altitude that he received from the clearance above altitude window.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: -- clarification?

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Yes, the -- the cleared altitude from the air traffic control will be set in the window. It should be translated in the window, not above the window, obviously. The cleared altitude is set in the altitude select window.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: All right.

(Resumption of translation)

THE WITNESS: And just before descending PF'ssupposed to set the altitude mode to S-E-L mode. S-E-L -- which mode?

(Pause)

THE WITNESS: PF's supposed to set the altitude to -- altitude just before descending S-E-L position mode. Then he's supposed to put the speed to the VS mode -- VS position mode. And then he turned the VF control knob to "strengthen." When its altitude is catched he is supposed to change to altitude hold mode. Then he's supposed to pre-set the altitude that indicated the chart -- the next -- next step. That's it.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: I think we've got another request for clarification here from KAL.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Rather than a point-by-point clarification, may we have your ruling at this point to intervene somehow to clarify the translation process on these critical matters? I'm afraid we're getting the wrong impression from the people present as to what Captain Lee's saying. He's -- we're having a lot of difficulty at this time.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: That's all right with me. Does anyone have a problem with that? Paul, is that all right with you?

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: That's all right.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: I mean the purpose of this is to -- is to get a clear explanation, so whatever we have to do to do that we'll -- we'll do.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: I'll clarify for the record. Speaking for Korean Airlines, First Officer Steve Chung. And at this point I would like to --unless anyone objects at any particular point, I'll go ahead and translate for Captain Lee. Thank you.

(Pause)

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: All right. We're just --we're a little concerned about the official record here and how this will work. I -- I guess I would say that -- that I'm with that in that we will have the ability ultimately to go back in the original Korean and -- and reexamine the -- the translation that's being done by you. So, let's -- we will go ahead and allow this but with the understanding that the official record will be subject to -- to clarification.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Mr. Chairman, thank you. We would insist upon that as well that after the Board hearing that all translation matters be checked as to the clarity and accurate translation on -- on our behalf.

(Pause)

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: All right. Let's go aheadthen and -- and do it that way for -- and we'll see how it works here.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Thank you.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: I think this may facilitate.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Thank you for your consideration.

(First Officer Chung of the Korean Air Company, Limited translated both questions posed in English to Korean and Captain Lee's responses in Korean to English.)

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Okay. I'll state the question one more time, then. During a non-precision approach, what would be the procedure for setting the altitudes in the altitude select window?

THE WITNESS: To start from the beginning again, the cleared altitude clearance from the air traffic control will be set in the altitude window to begin with. The pilot flying will set the next altitude into the altitude select window just prior to descent to the next altitude.

Forgive me, he would set the altitude selector switch into the -- "select" position. He would set the VS mode switch on the VS mode. Using the vertical speed control knob he would start -- initiatethe descent. Once the selected altitude is captured he would select altitude -- "altitude hold." After this process, he can set the next altitude on the chart. And that's -- that's it.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Would the pilot flying on a non-precision approach expect the altitude warning light and chime to remind him of the step downs?

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Would you repeat that question one more time, please?

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Sure. Would the pilot flying a non-precision approach expect the -- the light and the chime on the altitude warning to remind him of the step-downs?

THE WITNESS: That's correct. The pilot flying would expect that.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: During the non-precision approach, what mode -- this is only for a non-precision approach -- what mode is normally set on the autopilot flight -- flight director mode selector?

THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the question, please?

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: During a non-precision approach -- that would be NDB, POR, or localizer approach -- what mode is normally selected on the flight director?

THE WITNESS: Are you referring to the flight director modes on the 747 Classic or the navigation selector switch?

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: I'm -- I'm referring to the -- the flight director modes that would provide guidance to the command bars.

THE WITNESS: The captain would use the mode A and the first officer position would use B mode on the flight director switches.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Okay. I'd like to clarify. Would he use for the flight director "heading VOR Loc ILS land"?

THE WITNESS: Now I understand. That is the navigation mode. For the NDV approach he would select the "heading" mode. For either the VOR or the localizer approach he would select the VOR Loc mode.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Okay. Could I just make a comment here? This -- this is a very obviously important part of this hearing, and I want to make sure that everyone, the questioner, the interpreter, and the witness are -- are clear about the questions and the answers. And if we need to repeat this several times in order to ensure clarity we will, but -- but please let's make certain that we don't go away from any question or any issue without everyone being totallycomfortable with what's being said.

THE WITNESS: For the NDB approach he would use the "heading" mode. For the VOR or the localizer approaches he would use the VOR Loc mode. That's --that's the answer.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: On a full ILS what mode --what navigation mode would be selected?

THE WITNESS: For the ILS approach he would select the ILS mode on the mode selector switch. For an auto-land, he would select the "land" mode on the nav switch.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Thank you for the clarification on that.

(Pause)

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Paul, are -- are we clear on ILS without glide slope?

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Yes. Yeah, we are.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Okay.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: At least I am.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: If you are we're happy.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Okay.

What are the required pilot responses to mechanical alerts from the GPWS?

THE WITNESS: There are two alerts, two different types of alerts to the GPWS. First, for thepull-up I will tell you. He would disengage both the autopilot and the auto-throttle. He would increase thrust to the maximum setting and raise pitch to the 20 degree climb position. He would not change the aircraft configuration as to the landing gear or the flap setting. The radio altimeter would be revert to -- to ascertain terrain clearance. Once terrain has been confirmed to be cleared he would lower the nose to increase air speed.

For the GPWS alerts I will tell you about that next. The sink rate terrain to low gear to low flaps, glide slope. For these alerts as -- as a -- as a recall action the pilot is supposed to change the flight path or the configuration to make sure the alert warning sound disappears. That would be it.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: What rate of descent is normally used on the 747 Classic during step-downs, and how is it set?

THE WITNESS: Basically, the rate of descent would change when the descent gradient changes. It would be about 300 foot per nautical mile, maximum of 400 feet per nautical mile. In terms of vertical speed, on the average of 1000 foot per minute, maximum of 1200 foot per minute. That's all.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Going back to themechanical GPS call-outs, what would be the pilot response for sink rate call-out?

THE WITNESS: As a recall action the pilot should correct the flight path angle to see to it that the warning disappears.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Can either pilot call for a go-around on approach?

THE WITNESS: Anyone can advise as to go-around.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: But if I understood your previous question, the PIC makes the final decision. Is that correct?

THE WITNESS: That's correct. You're correct.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: According to Korean Air procedures, what circumstances would -- require a go-around on a non-precision approach?

THE WITNESS: First, assuming the aircraft does at the MDA and at the missed approach point there is no visual to the runway, he would perform go-around. Secondly, below 500 feet in the case of an instrument failure he would perform a go-around. Thirdly, at any time the pilot feels that it is in the interest of safety he can perform a go-around at any time. That's all.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Captain Lee, do you have knowledge of how many of Korean Air approaches in line operations are non-precision approaches?

THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the question, please?

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Do you have knowledge of how many approaches in normal line operations at Korean Air are non-precision approaches?

THE WITNESS: At the home base of -- of Seoul Kimpo Airport we always use -- I correct that statement. We often use non-precision approaches. At domestic airports of -- in particular Chachu (ph) Airport we also use the non-precision approaches. The 747 Classic has many destination airports in Southeast Asia or Middle Eastern countries. In these areas it's quite often we see non-precision approaches. Finished.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: On the non-precision approaches that you see in route qualifications and --and IOE, what percentage of the airports have the --would you estimate have the DME and the VOR not located on the airport?

THE WITNESS: I don't believe I can give you a percentage figure. However, the 747 Classic at Korean Air, we have about 30 destination airports. I would say over half the airports the -- the VOR DME isnot co-located with the field. That's all.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: One question referring to a go-around. On a normal go-around, what pitch do the pilots normally rotate to on a -- on a missed approach or on a go-around?

THE WITNESS: For a normal go-around, initially you'd raise the pitch to 12 degrees. After landing gear is up, you would adjust the pitch to maintain V2 speed plus 10 knots.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Captain Lee, based on your review of all the exhibits, including the CVR transcript and the flight data recorder read-outs, what is your assessment of the crew performance relative to Korean Air training, the policy, and -- and the procedures?

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Let's make sure -- very sure that this is properly understood.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: May I have another opportunity to translate that? Would you repeat the question for the translator, Mr. Misencik?

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Sure. Based on the review of all the exhibits, including the CVR and flight data recorder read-outs, what is your assessment of the accident crew's performance relative to Korean Air training and procedures?

THE WITNESS: What I felt -- what I perceived from the CVR contents, I feel that CVR contents cannot possibly ascertain the entire crew action of the flight crew. We don't necessarily give credit to these things, but there's also body language involved. Of course, this is not part of our procedure. I would, however, like to emphasize that just based on what's contained in the CVR we cannot draw crew performance evaluations just on the CVR contents.

Anyway, what I felt overall was that the accident crew's standard call-out compliance was less than what I -- what we are taught. That suffices an answer.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Captain Lee, what changes have been made or are being discussed to be -- or being discussed in the training procedures as a result of this accident?

THE WITNESS: Since the 801 accident is still under investigation I would not want to make comments about the analysis. But based on the CVR and the DFTR results up to now we have implemented many changes since the accident. First, about simulator training, we -- we emphasize the use of TKAS, GPWS, and localizer procedures.

Also, we -- secondly, we -- we emphasizestandard call-outs. We have made sure that pilot flying will call out -- the pilot flying will call out all actions that he's carrying out. The pilot not flying will aggressively make all necessary advice. And after second advice, if there is no response that he would aggressively take over controls.

We have diversified the simulator training profile into three different categories. This is in regard to the simulator check profile. This gives the evaluator pilot the option to select any of the three scenarios at his option and -- would you repeat the end? And this is one way that we fortify the check process. That's all.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Okay. Thank you, Captain Lee. I think Dr. Brenner has some additional questions.

DR. BRENNER: Captain Lee, in 1989 Korean Air experienced an accident involving a DC 10 airplane at Tripoli, Libya in which the airplane landed short of the runway in fog conditions. Did the company make any safety changes as a result of this accident?

THE WITNESS: At that time I was a first officer on the MD 82. From my position I don't think I -- I do not know what changes specifically took place as a result of the accident that you talk about. I donot want to say that Korean Air did not make any changes as a result of the accident. It's just that I do not know from my position at the time.

DR. BRENNER: Do you use the radio altimeter for category one or better approaches?

THE WITNESS: Would you specify what you mean by above category one approach -- category one or better?

DR. BRENNER: Category one visibility or better visibility.

THE WITNESS: The radio altimeter does not have direct relationship to the visibility. It depends on the type of approach that we're flying. For a category one approach or a non-precision approach we use it as -- we have the option to use it as a reference. That's it.

DR. BRENNER: Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, this completes our questions.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: KCAB?

MR. LEE: Thank you, Chairman.

(The rest of Mr. Lee's response in Korean was not translated.)

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: We'll -- we'll go back now to the normal interpretation if we can, please.

(Pause)

(The following is a verbatim transcript of the English translation of Mr. Lee's questions posed in Korean and Captain Lee's responses made in Korean.)

MR. LEE: Did you get my translation, by the way? Did you get my translation? Can you raise your hand?

Oh, okay. Let me repeat it. Because most of the questions that I originally intended to ask have been covered by the questions that have been just asked, let me just go on to ask one question only.

INTERPRETER: Okay. Let me then translate. Here it goes.

(Resumption of translation)

THE WITNESS: You received "glide scope unusable" information prior to departure -- I mean by "you" the crew of the accident flight -- prior to the departure at the Kimpo International Airport through NOTAM. And also, prior to arrival you receive the same "glide scope unusual" information -- unusable information from A-T-I-S. And in addition, you receive the same information, "glide scope unusable" at the time that the accident flight was cleared for approach from the CERAP.

INTERPRETER: Let me correct -- correct glide slope to glide scope. Glide scope to glide slope.

(Resumption of translation)

THE WITNESS: Listening to the contents of the CVR extracted from the accident, we can see that on numerous occasions first officer and the flight engineer kept asking the question whether glide scope -- glide slope was working or not. You just told us during your testimony that it is absolutely against your training instructions to try to execute landing when there is any problem with the glide slope.

The question I'm driving -- trying to drive at is that to -- in the CVR contents when the first officer and the flight engineer kept asking the question, "Is glide slope working?" I want to give it a benefit of doubt as to how the question was framed. I would say that under a different possibility, a different cultural context or circumstance the first officer and the flight engineer might have asked "Glide slope is not working so it should not be done this way."

So, my question is whether the way the question was framed is because of the Korean culture that kind of inhibited lesser officer from presenting advocacy or challenging the chief pilot?

THE WITNESS: We do not know under what kind of circumstances the crew of the accident flight wereoperating. We do not also know whether the -- the signal or the increment was actually used just based on the effect that there was an advocacy or inquiries on the part of the crew. That's all.

MR. LEE: Thank you.

(End translation of Mr. Lee's questions. Translation of Captain Lee's responses continued.)

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Thank you. FAA?

MR. DONNER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a few questions.

Captain Lee, how many sets of approach plates are available to a 747 crew during flight?

(Captain Lee's response is not translated into English.)

MR. DONNER: I'm sorry, sir. I'm not receiving answers on this.

(Pause)

INTERPRETER: -- hear me?

(Pause)

INTERPRETER: We are experiencing some technical difficulties here, some glitch which is preventing us from communicating. I'm trying to ascertain whether the witness is -- the witness can hear me or not, but he's not responding.

(The interpreter and the witness conversed in Korean.)

INTERPRETER: Now he can.

MR. DONNER: I think we're all right now.

(Resumption of translation)

THE WITNESS: I'm not sure whether I clearly, unequivocally understood the point of your question, so it may be probably advisable for you to ask the question just one more time.

(The interpreter and the witness conversed in Korean.)

(Resumption of translation)

THE WITNESS: Okay. Please go ahead and repeat the question just one more time, please.

MR. DONNER: Thank you, sir. Are any approach plates permanently installed on -- on board the aircraft?

THE WITNESS: Yes. Basically, the captain and the first officer have Jefferson manuals that they are individually handed out. It includes the airport charts and the en route charts for the airports that we regularly provide carrier service. There is also one copy of the Jefferson manual in flight.

(The interpreter and the witness conversed in Korean.)

INTERPRETER: Let me restate my previous translation. Here it goes. There is an aircraft boarding manual also.

(Resumption of translation)

THE WITNESS: Which includes en routes charts for alternate airports and en route airport.

INTERPRETER: Oh, I'm sorry. Emergency airports.

(Resumption of translation)

THE WITNESS: That's all.

MR. DONNER: Thank you, sir.

Does the flight engineer have any role in reviewing or monitoring approach plates?

THE WITNESS: Yes. In addition to the primary responsibilities assigned with the flight engineer. The flight engineer would also help find instrument panel and visual cue.

Let me slightly modify my answer. The flight engineer would also monitor the instrument panel and help find the visual cue. That's all.

MR. DONNER: Thank you.

May I refer you please to Exhibit 2A, page 24?

(Pause)

MR. DONNER: And this is just a point ofclarification. Near the bottom of the page there's a statement that the four-day CRM program is given only to pilots.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm looking at it.

MR. DONNER: And on page 25, the next page, near the top of the page there's a sentence, "Advocacy teaches the first officers and flight engineers to intervene when necessary." My question, sir, is do your flight engineers also receive crew resource management training?

THE WITNESS: CRM is not part of my training responsibilities. However, to my knowledge, flight engineers do receive the CRM training.

MR. DONNER: Thank you. One final question please on Exhibit 2 November.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

MR. DONNER: And this is the ILS approach to runway 6-left at Agana. Can you tell me, sir, if the outer marker is a required piece of equipment to conduct this approach?

THE WITNESS: Are you referring to the ILS or localizer approach?

MR. DONNER: I'm referring to the ILS approach with the glide slope inoperative.

THE WITNESS: Once DME is on out -- the outermarker doesn't have to be operative.

MR. DONNER: Thank you very much, sir. I have no further questions.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: NATCA?

MR. MOTE: No questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Guam?

MR. DERVISH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just one quick question.

Do you know how many times this flight crew flew into Guam before the accident?

THE WITNESS: The circumstance -- let me restate it. The nature of the matter is such that I cannot give you an answer in a nutshell. Let me be more -- more specific. The captain and first officer and the flight engineer, they do not always travel together in the same flight. Also, the -- the aircraft involved is a 747 Classic, but you can easily imagine that the crew involved might have flown in a different type of aircraft previously. That's all.

MR. DERVISH: Well, how about the captain? How many times did he fly into Guam?

THE WITNESS: My understanding -- I heard that it was once that he had flown to Guam prior to the accident, but I am not sure.

MR. DERVISH: Thank you, Captain Lee.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: I think that information was both in the record and in Mr. Feith's opening statement.

Boeing Company?

MR. DARCY: Mr. Chairman, we have no questions for Captain Lee. Thank you.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Barton?

MR. E. MONTGOMERY: No questions, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Korean Air?

CAPTAIN KIM: No questions.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: All right. I think that -- we've got Mr. Feith.

MR. FEITH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have several questions.

Teddy, could you put up the approach plate that we were using earlier in -- in Captain Lee's testimony, please?

(Pause)

MR. FEITH: Captain Lee, you had given us a briefing about the approach plate and the information on the approach plate, and I don't recall if you had briefed -- part of the approach plate. It's the remark at the initial approach fix. Could you just brief whatthat remark means at the initial approach fix? Right there where the pointer is.

THE WITNESS: Do you mean to be ask me to describe what the remark is about?

MR. FEITH: Yes.

THE WITNESS: The initial approach fix, its name is Hummer, and its location is 7.0 DME from the Nimitz VOR 3.4.3 radiar -- radar -- 343 radar -- radio.

MR. FEITH: And the 7.0 that the pointer is pointing to refers to the mileage from where to where?

THE WITNESS: That indicates the distance from the Nimitz VOR.

MR. FEITH: Thank you. You had spoken briefly when Captain Misencik was asking questions about the crew's briefing as it was depicted on the CVR. Could you please describe if the briefing that was conducted by the captain for the ILS with the localizer inoperative covered all of the appropriate information necessary to execute that approach?

THE WITNESS: I found the question kind of long, so can you just give me the gist one more time?

MR. FEITH: You have read the CVR. Was the captain's briefing to the other crew members inclusive of all of the information that would be expected by Korean Air in an approach briefing?

THE WITNESS: Just based on the taped contents in the CVR I cannot say that all the related matters were covered. However, -- but when you read the CVR transcript you can come across a phrase, quote, "As I told you before," unquote. Judging from that even though the crew did not follow certain format I can feel it would be fair to say that the crew discussed briefing.

MR. FEITH: Thank you. With regard to the CVR transcript, it was noted that there were two altitude alert sounds recorded on the CVR. However, there was no reaction by the flight crew to either of those altitude alerts. Does Korean Air have a specific procedure for the pilots to call either 1000 feet above a selected altitude or upon capturing the desired altitude?

THE WITNESS: Yes. According to our procedure we are supposed to make the 1000 above call prior to 1000 feet above the selected altitude. I meant 1000 level. That's all.

MR. FEITH: Let me see if I understand. They call 1000 feet above the altitude and then also call when they are level at the desired altitude?

THE WITNESS: No, that's not true. The first call will apply to the case when it is 1000 feet beforethe select altitude. It is the other way around from your understanding.

MR. FEITH: Should the crew, either the pilot flying or the pilot not flying, have called the altitude as the captain had requested based on the CVR when he had asked for the altitude of 1440 feet to be set into the altitude window? There was an -- should they have called that altitude upon reaching that altitude? Should someone have said 1440?

THE WITNESS: Would you repeat your question one more time?

MR. FEITH: Should either of the pilots have reacted to the altitude alert when the airplane descended below 1440 feet on the approach?

THE WITNESS: I just told you that we are supposed to -- to call out before -- at the 1000 feet level before or below the select altitude. Not below but before the select altitude.

MR. FEITH: And I understand that part of your answer. My question is because there was an altitude alert recorded twice on the CVR and there was no reaction to those altitude alerts, should there have been based on procedures from Korean -- at Korean Air?

THE WITNESS: As I just told you, our crew --requires us to make a call at 1000 feet before theselect altitude.

MR. FEITH: Okay. Thank you, Captain.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Wait a minute now. Are you -- are you happy with that answer?

MR. FEITH: I'm not sure that the captain understands my --

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Well, let's -- let's make sure that somebody helps us clarify the question here.

INTERPRETER: May I in -- may -- may the interpreter interject? I'm pretty positive the witness understood the translated question, but his position seems like he wants to just keep repeating his position instead of directly hitting the point of the question. I made some presumptions, but that's my interpretation in between the lines.

MR. FEITH: I would like to get a -- a clarification because we have two altitude alerts. This airplane went through two altitudes, the alerts went off, yet no one reacted, and I want to know if there is in fact a policy or procedure that the crew should have taken some sort of action to that alert.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Mr. Chairman, may we assist the witness to understand Mr. Feith's question in Korean? Do we have your permission to do that?

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Yes, sir.

(The following is a verbatim transcript of the English translation of First Officer Chung's Korean translation of Mr. Feith's question and Captain Lee's response in Korean.)

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Why -- why don't you ask him the second part of the question that the -- the call should be made not just at the time when 1000 feet is reached before the select altitude but also the time when desired altitude has been captured?

THE WITNESS: Yes, prior to crossing the --the 1000-feet mark before the selected altitude and the aircraft goes on to capture the desired altitude, then the PNF, the pilot not flying, is supposed to call out "desired altitude captured."

(End translation of First Officer Chung. Translation of Captain Lee's responses from Korean to English continued.)

MR. FEITH: Thank you. With regard to the GPWS, does Korean Air have any procedures for reacting to the GPWS call at 500 feet on a non-precision approach?

THE WITNESS: Up to the time of the accident the -- the procedure prior to the time of the accident, it was not required, the 500-feet call. Let me just elaborate a little bit. As for our Boeing 747 Classicaircraft, with respect to radio altimeter one type includes auto-call, the other type does not include auto-call. With the type that does not have auto-call, it is the job of flight engineer to make the call. In such a case the 500-feet call would not be made in the non-precision approach. However, in the case of a auto-call regardless of non-precision or precision approach the 500-feet call is to be made. That's it.

MR. FEITH: At 500 feet, since this airplane had auto-call, the GPWS called 500 feet. Is there a policy for a practice at Korean Air for the flight crew to execute a go-around when executing a non-precision approach and receiving that GPWS call?

(The interpreter and Captain Lee conversed in Korean.)

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: I think there's the request for a clarification here.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Mr. Chairman, we'd like to enter for the record that the translation process is fairly accurate and literal. However, we're running into an -- a pattern here. The gist of the meaning is not being transferred and there's a great deal of misunderstanding throughout this session. May we intervene at this time again?

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: On this question go ahead.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Thank you.

(First Officer Chung translated both questions posed in English to Korean and Captain Lee's responses made in Korean to English.)

MR. FEITH: What I'm asking is does Korean Air have a policy or a practice that when a flight crew receives a GPWS call of 500 feet during a non-precision approach that the crew automatically execute a missed approach or go-around or do they evaluate and continue the approach?

THE WITNESS: We do not have a procedure that mandates a go-around at 500 feet automatically. That is, in regard to the GPWS calls.

MR. FEITH: But since the flight engineer did not make a 500-foot call, would that -- would that change had the flight engineer made the 500-foot call?

THE WITNESS: Are you asking our thoughts or opinions?

MR. FEITH: Is there a policy that had --on -- on those airplanes that don't have automatic 500-foot call, if the flight engineer had made that call, would that have necessitated a go-around by the flight crew?

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: I believe he said there's no procedure to -- that mandates a go-aroundwhether it's an auto-call or a flight engineer-derived, you would not go around at 500 feet.

MR. FEITH: Are you aware of any other airlines that use the practice of automatic go-around at 500-foot GPS call?

THE WITNESS: I have not heard of such an airline.

MR. FEITH: Okay. Thank you.

Captain Lee, on the transcript of the CVR the captain at 15:41:14 -- and you don't need to turn to it, I'll read it to you -- the captain made a call in response to a checklist item and his response -- the captain's response was, quote, "No flags, gear flap," end quote. Can you tell me what he would be referring to when making that call, particularly regarding the "no flags" call?

THE WITNESS: The phrase "no flag" implies that no instrument -- not any single instrument on the instrument panel has a flag indication throughout.

MR. FEITH: Would that include the ILS flag?

THE WITNESS: It includes all flags.

MR. FEITH: Captain Lee, you had answered a question for Dr. Brenner, I believe, regarding cultural issues that may have been an influence in one of the discussions or the discussion about the glide slope. Based on your reading of the CVR, do you believe there are any other cultural factors or influences that you see in the way the crew was reacting or interacting throughout the course of time that the CVR covers?

THE WITNESS: May I verify that I did make a remark regarding cultural something when Dr. Brenner answered? I don't remember specifically answering in regard to cultural aspects.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Was that possibly a question from Mr. Lee?

MR. FEITH: That may have been, I'm sorry. Yes.

Basically what I'm -- I'm just asking is, is -- is there -- was there possibly an inhibition by the first officer or the flight engineer to question the captain throughout the period of time where commands were being given or actions were being requested by the captain?

THE WITNESS: I do not feel that way.

MR. FEITH: And one last question, Captain. You had made a statement regarding -- I think it was with -- to Captain Misencik -- when you were describing how the non-precision approach that involves a step-down is flown. I believe you had -- or at least it is my understanding of what you said that a pilot may infact do a constant-rate descent for passenger comfort, more or less. Did I understand that correctly?

THE WITNESS: I put a caveat on that remark when I said that. And the condition was that he would set each altitude on the approach plate limiting the step-down and satisfy those altitude limitations. That was a condition that he would perform this.

MR. FEITH: So, if I understand that correctly, the step-down procedures would still be followed during the course of the approach even with a constant-rate descent?

THE WITNESS: I definitely remember saying that in VMC conditions provided that all altitude step-down fixers are satisfied above that limitation that we have the -- we simply exercise the option to perform this, and it implies that we can do it, not that we teach it or we -- it is not taught that we do this.

MR. FEITH: Two questions to that. One, this approach was flown at night, and given that they went from VMC to IMC conditions on the approach, would this be a prudent practice by a flight crew to exercise?

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: You're referring to the constant --

MR. FEITH: Constant rate.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: -- descent gradient?

THE WITNESS: Of course, when I said VMC conditions before, that -- I did not include nighttime. I believe this is a matter of phrasing it, but I'm talking about VMC conditions in daytime. Visual conditions, I'm sorry. And I would say in the case of the 801, this would not apply.

MR. FEITH: Well, that would be my second question is, given the flight profile that has been revealed during the course of the investigation using FDR and radar information which depicts 801 at a relatively constant rate descent, does captain believe that this type of approach was being flown that night?

THE WITNESS: I'm not an expert in the analysis of flight data recorders, but I have seen the data myself. In my opinion, the altitude was captured at 1440 feet. I also believe that it was captured at 560 feet.

MR. FEITH: What makes him believe that?

THE WITNESS: First about the 1440. We have performed some simulations in the same type of aircraft. I would say that the -- the pitch-up indicated would not have been simply from a configuration change. And the power was increased. Just prior to that event we also noticed a vertical G being slightly increased, it appears, vertical G. AndI believe at this point it tells me that the captain is controlling through a vertical speed mode. I am not an expert on the subject, of course.

Regarding the 560 feet, if I may use the --summary in the exhibit, just prior to the point where the captain disengages the autopilot for the purpose of go-around the pitch -- we have the appearance or the effect -- an effect of the pitch raising somewhat. That's my opinion on why I think that.

INTERPRETER: Mr. Chairman, may I talk to the interpreter just very briefly?

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Are you through with that question, Greg?

MR. FEITH: Yes. I'm just formulate --unless you've got a follow-up to that question --

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: No, I'm --

MR. FEITH: -- just thinking --

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: -- I'm not sure -- go any -- anywhere further with that.

(Pause)

MR. FEITH: I have no further questions.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Thank you.

Monty?

MR. M. MONTGOMERY: I have no questions. Thank you.

MR. CARISEO: No questions, Mr. Chairman.

(First Officer Chung continued to translate both the questions posed in English to Korean and Captain Lee's responses from Korean to English.)

MR. BERMAN: Captain Lee, it sounds like you've reviewed the cockpit voice recorder transcript. I'll make some references to it but read from it for you.

At 15:37:07 -- correction. At 15:33:38 the captain refers to, "What's the number for Guam 17?" and the first officer replies, "17." Do you know what that is in reference to? 17?

THE WITNESS: The accident -- the accident aircraft was installed with the ANS system. When you approach the destination airport you change the legs page to make the destination appear so that you can know your final distance to the destination as well as the time to the destination. And they're aware to the fact that the ANS has a built-in error associated. That's it.

MR. BERMAN: Okay. At 15:37:07 the flight crew refers to INS DME display. Is that the same display as the DME from VOR?

THE WITNESS: That -- that particular point in the CVR has been cut off or interrupted. Butspeaking in general, after having checked the flight plan for the accident air -- aircraft, number 17 refers to the Guam Airport. Number 16 is the Nimitz VOR. That would be my answer.

MR. BERMAN: Where is the INS display located in the cockpit?

THE WITNESS: On the center pedestal, as he put it, the center console, right next to the captain on his right. Across the center console right next to the first officer is the display number two. On the aft portion of the same console is number three.

MR. BERMAN: All right. Thank you.

Let me ask you to help us understand the instrumentation. If the mode control panel altitude selector were set at 1440 and the altitude capture had engaged and then the altitude selector were changed to 560 before the altitude 1440 were held, what would be the effect on the aircraft?

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Let's be very certain that this question is fully understood, please.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Okay.

THE WITNESS: I understand your questions to mean this is the pilot not having engaged the altitude hold switch and continuing to set the next altitude.

MR. BERMAN: This is correct. If thealtitude 560 were set prior to altitude hold.

THE WITNESS: That would -- differ depending on how much time lag or delay there was after the altitude hold switch was engaged. The altitude capture mode has a certain transition layer or something to that effect. If it's -- if the autopilot is in the altitude capture transition phase or period and at that time if the altitude selection was lowered it maintains the pitch -- it means the -- maintains the pitch at the time of the adjustment? Would that be correct? It maintains the pitch -- pitch at -- as -- as -- at the time of the -- the switch being changed.

MR. BERMAN: So, it would descend below --

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: I'm sorry. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: As long as you don't touch the speed mode switch, that -- that -- that is what would happen.

MR. BERMAN: So it would descend below 1440?

THE WITNESS: Of course, that is true provided once again that the -- prior to capture that this action was taken place.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: It would go through 1440?

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: He -- he said yes, it would go through 1440 but this is under the premise that we stated before is what he said.

MR. BERMAN: Prior -- as long as it was done prior to altitude hold being engaged?

THE WITNESS: That's correct.

MR. BERMAN: Okay. And I know we've discussed this before, but I think we need to revisit once -- one more time. Does Korean Air have a required call-out by the pilot not flying if the airplane descends through an assigned altitude?

THE WITNESS: I have said that the standard call-out covers the altitude capture call.

MR. BERMAN: Right. And if the altitude is not captured is my question now.

THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I understand the content of the question.

MR. BERMAN: I'm understanding that the required call-out is "the altitude has been captured." My question now is what is the required call-out in the absence of altitude capture?

THE WITNESS: All crews are supposed to monitor the altimeter while the altitude is changing. If for some reason such as mechanical failure or just anomalies that the airplane fails to capture an altitude, it is expected that the first crew to notice this with call it out.

MR. BERMAN: Okay. I understand.

Referring to the approach chart for the ILS approach to runway 6-left executing the approach with the glide slope inoperative, what would the crew do if the outer marker were not received in this approach?

THE WITNESS: It would seem that the crews would not be aware that the outer marker was -- whether the outer -- outer marker was operating or not. They would not know until they passed that point. But since the -- but since they have a DME and assuming that the DME was operating correctly, the -- they would know when they were at the outer marker position.

MR. BERMAN: Okay. Thank you.

How do pilots in general identify, when they are going to use a constant descent method, the position or time to begin the descent on a non-precision approach?

THE WITNESS: We don't recommend the constant descent method, as I said before. But if they were to do it, we would base this decision with reference to the airport -- to the final airport elevation.

MR. BERMAN: Okay.

THE WITNESS: Yes, of course.

MR. BERMAN: Okay. Thank you.

You testified earlier that about half of the airports served by the 747 Classic have the VOR and DMElocated off the field.

THE WITNESS: I'm saying that one airport will have many different types of approaches. And I'm including all those.

MR. BERMAN: Okay. And how many of those airports does the approach use the DME that's located off the field?

THE WITNESS: I believe -- I understand that I explained that about half the airports have the DME non co-located with the field.

MR. BERMAN: Okay. How many at the -- of how many of those airports does the ILS or localizer approach use the DME distance that is located off the field?

THE WITNESS: Would you repeat that question, please?

MR. BERMAN: At how many of these airports does the ILS or localizer approach use DME information located off the field?

THE WITNESS: At this time I don't really know. I can't put a finger on that.

MR. BERMAN: Okay. Referring to the Jefferson manual that you said was carried aboard the aircraft, the third manual, are the airport approach charts for Guam included in that manual?

THE WITNESS: I believe the -- at the time of the accident the Guam chart was included in the individual charts -- individual crew-carry possession charts.

MR. BERMAN: But not in the aircraft charts for emergency airports?

THE WITNESS: That's correct.

MR. BERMAN: If we could return briefly to the -- this issue of the constant descent approach. You said that they don't -- Korean Air doesn't recommend this method.

THE WITNESS: Yes, that's true. I am talking about training -- during training.

MR. BERMAN: Is it prudent to condone that type of procedure in actual line operations?

THE WITNESS: That is -- I believe that's entirely up to the discretion of the pilot in command and we neither condone nor disparage those practices.

MR. BERMAN: But you are aware of these practices?

THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm aware in practice.

MR. BERMAN: Thank you.

(End translation)

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Thank you very much, Captain Lee. This has been a -- an extraordinarilylong morning for all of us but I suspect particularly for you, and we appreciate your tolerance. I don't like to take -- breaks in the middle of witness testimony because there is a -- a benefit for continuity. We thank you very much for your -- for your patience and for your testimony. Thank you.

We will now take a break for lunch and reconvene at 1:00.

(Whereupon, at 11:55 a.m., the proceedings were adjourned for lunch, to reconvene at 1:00 p.m. the same day.)

A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

1:00 p.m.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: All right. Our next witness this afternoon will be Captain Park, director of Academic Flight Training, Korean Air.

MR. SCHLEEDE: It's Mr. Park.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Excuse me. Mr. Park, not Captain Park.

Whereupon,

was called as a witness, and first having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

TESTIMONY OF
PARK, CHOON SIK
DIRECTOR, ACADEMIC FLIGHT TRAINING
KOREAN AIR
SEOUL, KOREA

(First Officer Chung resumed the duties of translating both the questions posed in English to Korean and Mr. Park's responses from Korean to English.)

MR. SCHLEEDE: Mr. Park, please give us your full name and title and business address for our record?

THE WITNESS: My name is Park, Choon Sik. Iwork in the city of Seoul, Tim Chung Dum (ph) area, at the Academic Facility.

MR. SCHLEEDE: And what is your position at the Academic Facility?

THE WITNESS: I am the chief academic coordinator for academic instruction. My job is to maintain the academic programs for the different types of training that goes on. We also administer management programs for the instructors and for the CRM programs.

MR. SCHLEEDE: Could you please give us a brief summary of your education and experience that qualifies you for your present position?

THE WITNESS: I attended a four-year university and majored in Political Science. In '75 I entered the Air Force as a lieutenant. And in 1960 I went through the U.S. Air Force navigator training qualification program. I also have training in instruction as an instructor.

Then I separated from the Air Force in '69 and entered the Korean Airlines at that time. Until 1977 I was in the position of a navigator -- flight navigator for Korean Airlines. After that time I transitioned to a flight engineer and I have served in the 727 aircraft, A300, and the 747. Then I worked asa flight engineer and also as an instructor. In 1994 I went from a regular flight engineer to a -- to current position.

MR. SCHLEEDE: Thank you, Mr. Park. Captain Misencik and Dr. Brenner will continue the questioning.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Good afternoon, Mr. Park. Are you still current and qualified as a -- a flight engineer at Korean Air?

THE WITNESS: No, I left the line in 1993 from line duties.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: What role do you have in the flight operations training program, the training manual for training pilots? Have -- did you have any role in developing that program?

THE WITNESS: I don't have direct involvement with the manuals development as such, but my primary duties are to -- for initial qualification, maintaining proficiency, and CRM training.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: What role does the KCAB have in approving or accepting Korean Air procedures and manuals?

THE WITNESS: At the current time the -- all of the aircraft operations manual, training manuals, procedures as well as policies need to be approved by KCAB.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Is there a record of comments and criticisms made by the KCAB in approving the flight operations training manuals?

THE WITNESS: Up to now there -- fortunately, up to now there have not been any such remarks.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Okay. Mr. Park, I'd like to just kind of give you an outline of what we will talk about today. It's three main topics.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Go ahead.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: The simulator training and standardization of procedures, CFIT training, and crew performance and CRM.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: In simulator training, what percentage of training is observed by the KCAB?

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Could you say KCAB checkers?

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: KCAB checkers or -- yeah.

THE WITNESS: Rather than percentage figures, there -- they observe two to three times annually.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Does that mean total for the airline they observe two to three simulator training sessions?

THE WITNESS: That is correct. However, for type rating check rides we use the designated checkingsystem. But as far as KCAB direct, two or three times annual.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: I just want to clarify that. That's airline-wide there's -- the KCAB observes two to three simulator training sessions?

THE WITNESS: Not specifically to say that they look at the session but that they -- excuse me. As an inspection program of sorts to overall manage and oversight two or three times a year.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Are there -- is there a record of comments that they have made on these inspection events?

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: They -- I don't believe he's answering the right question. He's said -- They look at the -- they look at many training records is what he said.

THE WITNESS: They observe training processes. They also look at the training results.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: I -- I understand. But the question is, is there a record that the -- at Korean Air of the times that the KCAB has done these things?

THE WITNESS: They are supposed to give us corrective action -- recommended corrections when they have their inspection. And they will give us list ofthings that we are performing incorrectly. So yes, there would be a record.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Do you recall any specific comments that the KCAB may have made relative to training?

THE WITNESS: I certainly cannot recall all the remarks that they made, but we have been identified as -- for recurrent training needing more varied destinations in our simulator training.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Are there any types of checks, flight checks, check rides that the KCAB is required to observe instead of a designated company checker or examiner?

THE WITNESS: Yes, there are. For the smaller type aircraft for captain checks that they are required to perform direct inspections or evaluations. And once annually they also perform an evaluation of the designated checkers.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: When I asked earlier how many simulator sessions the -- or training events the KCAB observes, the answer was two to three. That must have been -- we must have misunderstood each other. Could you clarify that?

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Actually, that -- he would like to correct that and say not about sessions. There's really less inspection of the sessions --simulator sessions that go on.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: I -- I'm not sure I understand that.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Can we -- can we clarify that? I think we'd better start over again here 'cause I think there's a --

THE WITNESS: As far as observing simulator sessions, KCAB does not come out and inspect simulator sessions.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Okay. Basically, you --are you saying that the KCAB does not -- does not observe training periods? They only observe check rides? Is that correct?

THE WITNESS: KCAB does look at check rides. The two to three times that I mentioned was their inspection of the education program.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Okay. I just really have to clarify this. There's no training -- no training sessions observed by the KCAB, but they observe a number of proficiency checks or type rating rides, is that --

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Would you clarify that as to whether you're referring to simulators right now?

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Okay. In the simulator,does the KCAB observe any training periods that are not flight checks or type rating rides?

THE WITNESS: You're correct. There are no direct observations of training for proficiency -- I'm sorry, for type rating check in the simulator.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Now, wait -- wait a minute. Right to the last phrase there I think I was clear. There is no observation in the simulator of training sessions but there may be in the simulator observation of check rides or proficiency rides, is this correct?

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I was -- I was confused.

(First Officer Chung and Mr. Park conversed in Korean.)

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: They're asking about simulators right now.

(First Officer Chung and Mr. Park continued to converse in Korean.)

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Again, this -- may I clarify? This is in reference to KCAB oversight?

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: That's correct. What I want to know is we'll break it down and separate training from check rides.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Go ahead.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: How many times does the KCAB observe training sessions, the simulator training sessions profiles one through 10 or whatever the profile is up to the check ride?

THE WITNESS: They don't have appreciable number of training sessions that they observe. However, for the check ride simulator -- simulator check rides they do observe it from start to finish.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Okay. And in the simulator check rides what percentage are observed by the KCAB?

THE WITNESS: As I said before, for smaller aircraft types for simulator check ride, the KCAB participates directly. Your question was what percentage -- percentage of --

(Mr. Park interrupted the interpreter in Korean.)

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Oh, he said almost all small aircraft type simulator check rides, almost all are observed by KCAB.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: And in the 747 Classic, what percentage of proficiency checks and recurrent check rides, type rating rides are observed by the KCAB?

THE WITNESS: For the larger aircraft typeswe mainly use designated examiners.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: So, are you saying there's a small percentage or --

THE WITNESS: I don't exactly remember the percentage figure.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: But there are records? Are there records?

THE WITNESS: If you need further proof of the records then I can provide them to you once I return.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Thank you. Each of the training profiles described in the training guide appear to be two hours long. How are these profiles used in the training curriculum?

THE WITNESS: Basically, the -- each simulator session is really composed of four hours. The two hours you're referring to is divided by pilot flying and pilot not flying.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: At the end of the two hours what happens? Do they swap pilot flying roles?

THE WITNESS: That's correct.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: And then the -- the profile is repeated?

THE WITNESS: Yes, they do use the same profile.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Are simulator instructors encouraged to follow the scenarios in each profile or are they encouraged to modify the -- the scenarios in any way?

THE WITNESS: These are -- profiles are really lesson plans and they should follow them throughout.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: The training profiles list the VOR DME for runway 3-2 approaches at Kimpo as the most common non-precision approach. How do pilots receive training in different types of non-precision approaches?

THE WITNESS: It's -- it is true that the --the 3-2 approach that you mentioned is the mainly used non-precision approach. What -- we have one localizer approach profile, and I personally feel that this is insufficient. Our plan is to diversify the non-precision types of approaches and to -- to increase the requirement on these.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: During recurrent training proficiency checks, which scenario is used? Is it for a non-precision approach?

THE WITNESS: As I've just stated, the VOR DME approach is the mainly used scenario, but from this year we're going to use more diverse types ofapproaches.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Thank you.

Are there any non-precision approach scenarios used in training where the DME used for the approach is not located on the airport?

THE WITNESS: Up to now, no. We teach the basic principles of a non-precision approach, that they would be able to appropriately -- when they review the approach plate they would be able to react accordingly according to the needs of the approach.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Could you describe some of the scenarios used in simulator training which help pilots adapt to unexpected situations during approach procedures?

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Unexpected scenarios you said?

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Yes. Unexpected situations.

THE WITNESS: I believe you're referring to pilot incapacitation. As far as responses to that situation, we have a standard call-out procedure at critical point during flight such as during the approach. If the PF would not react to a challenge by the PNF, then the PNF is taught to aggressively take over controls.

In addition, the 1000-feet point and the 500 points are designed so that -- to check the aircraft's stabilization along final, and at these times if the aircraft is found not to be stabilized then the PNF would be using the same principle, take-over controls if he had to.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Has the KCAB ever commented on the -- the fact that the non-precision approach scenarios seem to be limited to very few --very few approaches?

THE WITNESS: We have had -- we have had the feedback to that effect by KCAB.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Is that -- when -- when did you get that feedback?

THE WITNESS: Since the accident KCAB has said that the destination airport is not varied enough and the types of approaches are not varied enough.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Are there training scenarios where a pilot is expecting a -- a full ILS but there is a diversion to a -- an airport with a non-precision approach that is not a standard Korean Air destination?

THE WITNESS: Yes, periodically on the aloft profile we would run into something like that.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: According to Korean Airprocedures, could you list the -- the responses to the GPWS alerts as in the training manual? I know there was some -- the reason I'm saying this is there was some confusion from an earlier testimony.

THE WITNESS: It is -- the concept is covered in -- included in the training manual. As to GPWS alerts, we're supposed to make immediate avoidance actions. But the method will defer -- differ depending on the mode of the GPWS alert.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Has Korean Air received material from the Flight Safety Foundation relative to CFIT?

THE WITNESS: We have a VTR, audio-visual educational aid from that Flight Safety Foundation.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: And how has this information been put to use by Korean Air in the CFIT training program?

THE WITNESS: Basically, the main CFIT device of the GPWS equipment is covered in the academic instruction material. However, if we should talk about the manual that we obtained from -- that we obtained and the VTR materials -- we would like to add these points to the ground school instruction.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Does -- could you describe Korean Air CFIT training program or how it's utilizedin the training curriculum now -- Mr. Park?

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Would you repeat that question, please?

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Yeah. Would you describe how CFIT is -- CFIT awareness is used in the Korean Air training curriculum?

THE WITNESS: I'll speak of the current system of training. As I said, the GPWS systems education is covered in ground school. The avoidance procedures are covered under the procedures section of ground school. The simulator training syllabus contains two scenarios. Since we received that previously mentioned material we are planning on incorporating the -- the written material into our training.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Mr. Park, with the CRM program that you have, could you describe basically the -- the format or the curriculum of the CRM program that you have at Korean Air at this time?

THE WITNESS: We originally obtained the program from the United Airlines in 1986. The entire material has been translated into Korean and we're using that now. Of course, all of the CRM programs that -- different programs have the same objectives, but we have sort of a laboratory -- we have thelaboratory type is what we have.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: How long of a course is it? And is it -- does it involve all Korean Air employees?

THE WITNESS: The course is three nights, four days, and requires about 39 hours of instruction. And it would apply not to all employees but to all air crew members.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Mr. Park, how do you measure the success of the Korean Air CRM program?

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Excuse me. I'm not sure if I said that properly. May I have another chance at it? You say how is --

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: How is success -- how is success measured? How do you know that the CRM program is working?

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: How do we know that the CRM program is working?

THE WITNESS: We do not have a appropriate way to measure the success of our program. But in order to make this program successful we have made efforts in two different directions. One, the CRM awareness is introduced to the CRM seminar courses. And the practice will be worked out in the aloft scenarios. The evaluation team would evaluate the CRMprogram each year. And we seek for that area which applies most to our airline. And that has been selected as our task of the year. Then we try to reflect this into the aloft training.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: This CRM program, has it changed since -- since the accident?

THE WITNESS: The CRM seminar portion has not changed.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: What -- what has changed?

THE WITNESS: Each years aloft is conducted in the second half -- the latter half of the year. And up to now it's been hour and 30 minute aloft. And our plan is to increase this time to two hours and 30 minutes.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Mr. Park, based on your review of the exhibits, including the CVR and the flight data recorder, how do you assess the accident crew's performance relative to CRM and crew coordination?

THE WITNESS: Before I give an evaluation or an assessment, may I speak first about some standards? The goal of our CRM program involve interaction through the processes of inquiry and -- advocacy to come up with effective solutions, and if I look at it from that standpoint and then if I look at our crew -- accidentcrew, then it is difficult for me to say that they performed up to that standard in general.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Mr. Park, since the accident could you give us a -- an indication of what changes or what -- you -- you listed some, but what changes or contemplated changes may occur as a result of this accident in the academic department?

THE WITNESS: Since the investigation is still under going -- is still under going we have implemented only part of this program. Last year latter half through special educational program every crew member was reviewed on the instrument approach procedures. The CFIT, the VTR program, and the contents were introduced to the crews. As I said before, the aloft profile is planning to be increased to two and a half hours to change the CFIT academic curriculum programs. Those are the -- the changes underway at this time.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Okay. Thank you, Park --Mr. Park. I'm -- I have no further questions. I think Dr. Brenner has -- has some follow-on.

DR. BRENNER: Yes, Mr. Park. In 1989 a Korean Air suffered a CFIT, C-F-I-T, accident in Tripoli, Libya. Are you aware of any safety changes that resulted from this accident?

THE WITNESS: At the time I was not in a managerial position so I'm not too familiar with this, but from what I have discovered in the process of upgrade from a first officer to a captain 14 hours of additional instrument flying was added to the program and in terms of simulator sessions two types of CFIT-related GPWS warnings were included in the simulator session. As far as academic instructional system, it used to be tutorial style and it was changed to CBT, computer-based training style or method, so that it became a tutorial plus the CBT kind of a program at that time.

DR. BRENNER: Thank you. Were there any special considerations for adapting the CRM program to Korean culture and values?

THE WITNESS: That's a difficult problem and I would like to talk to you about it through an example. All air crew members participating in a CRM education program -- at the time of entering into the program about 80 percent of all crew members feel that they are qualified or fall in a category -- I'm sorry? That they're best qualified air crew. They grade themselves to be in the upper category. But at the end of the program those who when they reassess their cockpit operations styles and such, this number fallsto somewhere around 10 percent.

At the same time, they do gain this new value system, new value system wanting to become more adept at running an efficient cockpit management. And this statistic is the -- the same between our figures and that of the United Airlines. So I believe that the CRM processes do not speak of appreciable difference.

But when it comes to actual application in the cockpit I think there are some differences. Japan Airlines is an example of a company that two years ago adapted this kind of a program and in the same geographical area as Korean Airlines, and they do not speak of cultural differences in that situation.

The only remark I would like to make is that when it comes to the environment of cockpit operation that they -- that it needs to become culture-free in order to obtain our objective of safety standard. So, not so much cultural adaptation but driving the crews toward a culture-free state more in order to -- this culture-free cockpit environment to reach the objectives of safety rather than cultural adaptation or cultural aspect to approach the safety objective from this -- this angle.

DR. BRENNER: Thank you, Mr. Park. And just to clarify for me, if I understand, your company foundthat the United Airlines program was successful and did not need to be adapted to a Korean -- Korean emphasis?

THE WITNESS: We -- to this day we're not really compelled to change this program as it is, but taking into consideration the rapid state of cockpit automation we need to develop -- further develop and improve this program. We feel this need at this time.

DR. BRENNER: Thank you. And there was an earlier question, in this accident do you think that the subordinate crew members were inhibited from questioning the captain. I'd appreciate your views.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: I'm sorry. The last part I stepped on you.

DR. BRENNER: Oh, I would appreciate his views.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: That they felt which way, sir?

DR. BRENNER: That they felt inhibited --

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Inhibited.

DR. BRENNER: -- from questioning the captain.

THE WITNESS: In the Oriental culture there is a -- the concept of modesty, but when I look at the overall cooperative atmosphere among the crew members I do not really feel that way.

DR. BRENNER: Thank you, Mr. Park.

That completes my questions, Mr. Chairman.

(End of translation by First Officer Chung. Regular interpreters resumed translation duties.)

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: KCAB?

MR. LEE: Thank you, Chairman. I have only question. I'll confirm the factual approach.

When you see the factual report page 10, page 11, and page 12 according to personnel information the number one captain, second first officer, thirdly --third is a flight engineer. If you see that each paragraph end -- the end of the -- each paragraph -- he says that -- that record doesn't show the time or date of the -- of the crew members who received the certain education. What I'm referring to is the CRM program. As far as I know, since we MOTC -- MOCT inspect and also from the personal training record I -- I could confirm this record, yet you mentioned earlier that from this record it's -- it's impossible to check from the personal training record. Is that correct?

Then since your -- you didn't receive this kind of report it's -- did you -- have you ever asked and required to the NTSB to modify this kind of records or this kind of procedure?

THE WITNESS: After the certain program ortraining is finished, all the result is recorded in computer, but what type of the content of -- in that record I'm not sure as to why I -- I'm -- don't understand why this kind of a report is necessary. Even though it's -- here it says that cannot check the record but actually there's a -- that kind of a record is available. I'm sorry. It's unfortunate that I -- I will be -- were not able to modify.

MR. LEE: That's the question. Thank you.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Then I would ask if -- if this is the case that this could be presented to us for the record, please, through the KCAB.

Do you have a further question?

MR. LEE: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Do you have a further question or is that -- KCAB?

MR. LEE: No more questions.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Boeing Company?

MR. DARCY: We have no questions, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: NATCA?

MR. MOTE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No questions.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Korea Air?

CAPTAIN KIM: No questions, sir.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Barton?

MR. E. MONTGOMERY: No questions, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Guam?

MR. DERVISH: Thank you. No questions.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: FAA?

MR. DONNER: No questions, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Mr. Feith?

MR. FEITH: I just have a few questions.

(First Officer Chung resumed translating both the questions posed in English to Korean and Mr. Park's responses from Korean to English.)

MR. FEITH: Can you explain to us how pilots are upgraded, what the -- what the requirements are as based on seniority?

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Pilot -- which part, sir?

MR. FEITH: How are pilots upgraded?

THE WITNESS: Not based on seniority but by flight experience.

MR. FEITH: What would be the requirement from upgrading from a first officer to a captain with regard to flight experience?

THE WITNESS: I'm not qualified to speak on this from an expert point of view, but from what I knowfor the military background pilots about 3000 hours and for the -- background 4000 hours.

MR. FEITH: Let me make sure I got this correct. This captain on Flight 801 had about 9000 hours. He had transitioned off of another aircraft, 727. The first officer on this airplane had about 4000 hours. When would he be ready to upgrade to a captain if it's based on flight experience?

THE WITNESS: As I told you before, as far as the policy for upgrade I'm not really the man to talk to about. But if you need to, I can go into some detail for you. I would need some time.

MR. FEITH: Let me move to something you may know more about. How are instructor pilots selected?

THE WITNESS: Most of our simulator instructors are line experienced, retired pilots on a contract basis with Korean Air. As far as line instructors, as in the case of Captain Lee that just testified this morning, that's based on flight experience and overall experience that they would be selected. As far as the exact figure, I don't have that.

MR. FEITH: Is there any special training curriculum for a instructor pilot once he has been selected?

THE WITNESS: Yes, there is. Ground school is 13 hours, eight hours on simulator instruction and on how to -- how to use the simulator equipment. That includes actual hands on at -- in -- at the instructor position. And after they are checked at the line through a flight check then they're designated as flight instructors.

MR. FEITH: Thank you.

You had spoken earlier about the involvement with the KCAB as it regards your training program. Have you ever -- have you ever had to modify or change any of your training curriculum because of deficiencies or suggestions given to you by KCAB?

THE WITNESS: Yes, there are many instances in the past, but in particular, as I mentioned, the recurrent simulator profiles regarding the accident. Those would be the types of changes and it occurs all the time. As further examples of Guam approach scenarios and other difficult approach profiles, he says, for non-precision approaches have been updated.

MR. FEITH: Mr. Park, can -- I'd just like to ask a question about the GPWS minimums call-outs. Is there any specific training a pilot receives when the oral GPWS call-outs occur? Is there any action that is required of the crew?

THE WITNESS: Would you please specify your question more clearly?

MR. FEITH: On the CVR, it is recorded that the GPWS was doing the 500-foot call-out and then counted down from 100 feet. The crew did not talk about it from what was on the CVR, and there, from my point of view in reading the CVR, did not appear to be any reaction to those call-outs. Is there a procedure or a policy at Korean Air that would require the crew to either identify those call-outs and/or react to those call-outs?

THE WITNESS: First, why the CVR has those --why the CVR recorded what we hear I don't -- I can't imagine why this happened. Yeah, we teach this during instrument flight rules education. All simulator training and procedures teach immediate responses to minimum GPWS call-outs.

MR. FEITH: So, what would the appropriate response have been?

THE WITNESS: The fact that they did not make appropriate reaction to those call-outs is the part that I can't understand myself.

MR. FEITH: Thank you. One -- one last question. Are the instructors provided any special training with regard to CRM and the evaluation of CRM?

THE WITNESS: Not the seminar instructors but those who perform this at -- in the line. The proficiency check ride items and all check rides have a graded section for CRM. So, we do give a grade on the CRM interaction.

MR. FEITH: Well then, following onto that question, if you find a deficiency or a problem with CRM, how do you implement change because this is more of a behavioral type change, not so much a procedure? How do you influence that kind of change?

THE WITNESS: In this case, the chief pilots at the line would be consulted for appropriate solutions.

MR. FEITH: You may have already asked this -- answered this once before, but in your experience or your knowledge of the airline operations, have you ever heard of or observed a reluctance to the changes that would naturally come with a CRM program from previous operating, for lack of better words, culture where the captain was typically an authoritative figure in the cockpit?

THE WITNESS: You'd be surprised to find out we do not have any kinds of resistance as you speak of. Just the contrary, all of the managers have been accepting promoting of the CRM concept, and ourpresident of the company as well has been known to promote the program.

MR. FEITH: Given the fact that the managers accept it, do the line pilots accept it?

THE WITNESS: It is true that most of our line captains have educational experiences that stem from United States. Most of -- most of our aircraft have been purchased from the United States so that actual training would take place in the U.S. as well in a lot of the circumstances. So most of the captain are familiar with U.S. customs and the training philosophies.

When it comes to the younger people in our airline, we -- the media -- the media --

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: I would say their thoughts are more progressive due to the influence by the media I believe is what he's saying.

(Resumption of translation)

THE WITNESS: So that have we not come a long ways from the old way of thinking.

MR. FEITH: If I can just get a summary of yes or no, given all of that explanation is there a reluctance on the line pilot part to accept all of the training philosophies and this -- this new way of doing business in the cockpit?

THE WITNESS: Yes. I feel as I see it, yes. They're positively accepting of the new changes.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Is that -- is that clear?

MR. FEITH: Yes, I guess it is if -- if that is his -- his belief that there is an acceptance of --of this in the cockpit, yes.

One more thing, and that is you had spoken of the first officer taking aggressive action in a situation that may call for such action to be taken, i.e. or that is, when the captain may not respond to the second call that a first officer makes. Have you ever trained this, observed this in the simulator or in line operation?

THE WITNESS: This is specified in the standard call-outs. The standard call-out instruction specifically states the action to take in this instance, so I -- it is trained.

MR. FEITH: Okay. My question, I guess, is, to be very simple, have you ever observed the first officer take command of the airplane from the captain?

THE WITNESS: I have not seen it.

MR. FEITH: Thank you. I have no further questions.

MR. CARISEO: No questions, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: Go ahead.

MR. BERMAN: Mr. Park, based on what you've said, I understand that Korean Air has received the Flight Safety Foundation controlled-flight-into-terrain training program.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

MR. BERMAN: Had the airline received this program prior to the accident?

THE WITNESS: Yes, we did.

MR. BERMAN: Had you used it in your training curriculum prior to the accident?

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: He would like you to clarify which material you're talking about again, sir?

MR. BERMAN: The training manual and the videotape.

THE WITNESS: Last year's latter half recurrent ground school, the videotape was shown to all crew members.

MR. BERMAN: Mm-hmm. Had you used the CFIT checklist produced by the Flight Safety Foundation?

THE WITNESS: Not yet.

MR. BERMAN: With respect to pilot upgrades based on seniority and flight experience, how many pilots have failed the upgrade program from first officer to captain in the last five years?

THE WITNESS: I do not remember as to the number, but I would say a significant number.

MR. BERMAN: Can you give me an estimate of the percentage of upgrade candidates who failed?

THE WITNESS: I wasn't expecting to answer that question so I don't know.

MR. BERMAN: And what is the company's procedure for the pilots who fail the upgrade to captain? What -- what happens to them?

THE WITNESS: As to the action taken subsequent to that, we don't handle that. That is handled by a separate board.

MR. BERMAN: Okay. Would you please provide this information for the record? The percentage of upgrade candidates who fail and the company's actions afterwards.

THE WITNESS: Do you need that by a certain time?

MR. BERMAN: No. No, sir. Just please provide them when you can.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

MR. BERMAN: Thank you. No further questions.

MR. M. MONTGOMERY: I have no questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: I just have a comment, I guess, rather than a question. But I'm not sure what -- what exactly you mean by a culture-free cockpit. I'm not sure that on the face of it I would -- I would accept that there is such a thing. I would just say, I guess, that there's an enormous amount of very work --good work being done on culture in the cockpit and cross cultures in the cockpit, and -- and I hope that all of us that are involved in this industry and -- and in aviation safety will be paying a lot of attention to this, and as you commented earlier, that we'll be constantly adapting to -- to what we learn as we go on.

Thank you, Mr. Park, for your -- for your contribution.

(Pause)

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: He's -- Mr. Park is excused.

THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Chairman.

(Whereupon, the witness was excused.)

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: And we'll go from Mr. Park to Captain Park now as the next witness.

We will continue with the translator from the -- front here. I think that's facilitating a little bit, and then when we finish with this witness we'll go back to the interpreters in the rear of the room. Thatis, assuming Steve is holding out all right.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: -- holding up.

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: You holding up okay, Steven?

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Yes, I'm sorry. I --

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: This is -- this is real work, I know.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: One more --

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: -- appreciate what you're doing.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Thank you --

CHAIRMAN FRANCIS: If we can continue through this witness it's very helpful I think.

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: We appreciate the opportunity you're giving us. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Whereupon,

was called as a witness, and first having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

TESTIMONY OF
CAPTAIN PARK, PYUNG-WOO
DEPUTY DIRECTOR, FLIGHT OPERATION
KOREAN AIR
SEOUL, KOREA

MR. SCHLEEDE: Captain Park, please give usyour full name and business address for our record?

THE WITNESS: My name is Pyung-Woo Park. Currently I work at the Korean Air Flight Operations branch located at the Seoul City --

MR. SCHLEEDE: And what is your position at Korean Air, please?

THE WITNESS: Currently, I am the flight operations -- at Korean Airlines deputy director for Flight Operations.

MR. SCHLEEDE: Could you please give us a brief summary of your training, education, experience that qualifies you for your present position?

THE WITNESS: Graduated from the Korean Air Force Academy in 1966. Was commissioned and served for 10 years in the Korean Air Force. In the Air Force I mainly flew as a pilot on the C46 and the C54 type aircraft. I separated in 1976 May the -- May the 4th. I'm sorry, May the 31st.

I entered Korean Airlines in May the 19th of 1977 as a flight engineer on the 707. I transitioned to first officer in November of 1980, and May the 15th of 1985, I became a 707 captain. As a captain I flew in the MD 82 and the 747 Classic before I became a 747-400 captain in 1991. I'm currently also serving as a 747-400 line captain and an evaluator, and I have atotal time of approximately 14,300 hours. Excuse me, 18,300 hours.

I have been in the current position since November 20 -- 20th of 1996, as the deputy director. At the current position I'm mainly in charge of personnel matters, scheduling matters, and overall management and oversight of our flight crew members at Korean Air.

MR. SCHLEEDE: Thank you very much. Captain Misencik and Dr. Brenner will continue.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Good afternoon, Captain Park.

THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, sir.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: At the time of the accident, what was your title at Korean Air?

THE WITNESS: I was the deputy director at the time as I am now.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Okay. Captain Park, does Korean Air receive or solicit input from pilots regarding items of concern to them?

THE WITNESS: It does not occur frequently, but we do have cases of this happening.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Have pilots expressed concerns that you recall regarding training or flight procedures?

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Would you repeat that question, sir? I'm sorry.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Have pilots expressed concerns to management regarding the training program or flight procedures?

THE WITNESS: Yes, that all -- also occurs every now and then.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Do you have any recollection of some examples of some of the issues that pilots have raised in the past?

THE WITNESS: I'll give you one example. On the Classic 747 non-precision procedures according to the training manual published by the Boeing Company prior to the final approach fix they're supposed to run the landing checklist. Some line captains when they applied the Boeing procedures exactly that the workload involved in looking for visual cues as well as performing checklist items, that they were too busy to conduct this. Therefore, we requested -- they requested that the procedure be changed to perform the landing checklist prior to the final approach fix.

We collected this kind of information. We turned it over to the evaluations section and they verified as to this fact. And the chief pilots got together and discussed this matter thoroughly. And wefelt that this was -- this needed to be changed, so we contacted the Boeing Company at that time.

We expressed our desire to change the procedure to the Boeing Company, asked for their opinion as to the safety of making these procedural changes. After being advised that it did not infringe on flight safety we did change the procedure. By filing to the KCAB we received approval for this change to procedure.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Has Korean Air management in the past received any items of concern from pilots regarding the island of Guam or the approaches there?

THE WITNESS: Not prior to the accident.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Since the accident am I to assume that there has been some --

THE WITNESS: We have had verbal reports as well as captain report on written format come through about DME, the outer marker, and the glide slope not appearing as they were -- as they were reported to appear.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Do you have written records of those reports?

THE WITNESS: Of course, not the oral reports that I remember, but the written reports, I should have some in my office.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Has there been any input from the pilots regarding the -- the complexity of the approaches into Guam or the -- the terrain?

THE WITNESS: No, there have not been any comments in that regard.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Captain Park, how many airports on Korean Air's route structure do not have a VOR and DME located on the airport?

THE WITNESS: Excuse me. I don't have, again, exact figure as to how many airports exactly, but as an example John F. Kennedy Airport, the Canarsi (ph) approaches to runway 1-3 would be an example. Also, at Anchorage Airport and Frankfort Airport the VOR's located outside the airport. We did not feel that this kind of data required any kind of statistical percentage figures, so we didn't -- we don't have any data that relates to your question.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Captain Park, are there records kept or do you have any idea how many missed approaches are made in a given year?

THE WITNESS: We have not had the need to categorize missed approach -- missed approach instances into a percentage figure.

I should add something to that. The reason we don't do that if we -- if the management's actionkept track of the number of missed approaches we felt that this would force undue pressure on the pilots to perform the -- force a landing when they should go around. That's why we don't have -- we don't track that.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Mr. Park had already indicated the amount of -- the quality of CFIT training that is being considered or implemented into the academic curriculum. Could you tell us what management is doing with the CFIT initiative, if there is a CFIT program in -- in the works?

THE WITNESS: We did -- at the time we didn't put a name on it as such as a CFIT, but -- even prior to 1993 we took the initiative to make the CFIT concept an awareness. I'd like to give you some examples of the kind of education regarding CFIT.

Starting from the initial education for people that are new hires, transition and qualification and through recurrent training that occurs on a regular basis, so we've conducted CFIT education. Particular, in 1993 using the medium of "Flight Safety Magazine," which is used by the management to -- as a material for overall flight safety education. We have numerous articles that -- regarding the CFIT education. And in September of 1996 we took the more detailed CFITmaterial in the same medium and connected this educational training throughout the -- the pilot force.

What I've just disclosed to you is entered as our exhibit in -- under 2S.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Captain Park, the information that you entered as an exhibit, the articles on CFIT, how are those -- how is that information circulated to the pilots?

THE WITNESS: The -- the -- these articles as well as other items are distributed through the individual mail boxes at our company.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: The -- the articles as they are distributed, is there a -- a -- is it required reading? Is there a -- a survey taken of the pilots that respond to these articles?

THE WITNESS: All educational training materials transmitted to the crews the crews are required to read. We verify as to whether they read these material or not through periodic or no-notice inspections during recurrent and simulator training.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Most of these -- you have pilots from a -- a number of different countries and backgrounds flying at Korean Air. What language are these articles transmitted to the pilots?

THE WITNESS: It's usually in English.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Do you recall if any of these articles had focused on the lessons learned from the Cali accident?

THE WITNESS: Would you specify the question one more time?

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Do you recall if any of the flight safety CFIT accidents had information relating to the -- the American Airlines Cali accident?

THE WITNESS: Personally I do not remember sitting here.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: What is the Korean Air policy regarding Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning Systems in aircraft?

THE WITNESS: We have been aware of the performance advantages to the EGPWS for some time. We have received material on the subject.

Since this hearing is related to the 801 accident in particular, may I make one comment about the 801 accident? At the time of the accident the EGPWS was not in a practical -- was not practically implemented. However, for the aircraft to come on line scheduled for June of this year, new aircraft, this aircraft should have the EGPWS device installed.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Is there a plan to retrofit other aircraft with EGPWS?

THE WITNESS: My understanding is that the current models of the EGPWS, it is not practical to retrofit older airplanes because of the modifications involved.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Captain Park, would you please describe the training at Korean Air for special airports and for unfamiliar airports, please?

THE WITNESS: Excuse me. As far as the special airports, this would apply to Korean Airlines any special circumstances regarding not only the flying part but on the ground; for instance, the CIQ process itself. But certainly including arrivals, approaches, departure, any flight procedures requiring particular care would be classified as special airport.

Continuing on to air traffic control capabilities, the facilities -- NAV/AID facilities, approach lighting systems, obstruction training classes, we take those into consideration. Those airports that have these considerations to make it more difficult, then we would classify it as a special airport. This also takes into account the weather factors.

(Pause)

THE WITNESS: For special airports prior to the route training as a part of the academicinstruction they learn route procedures in the particular special airports. And we emphasize these special airports during route academic training. Then they come to experience it firsthand during the what we call the route training in-flight.

For the unfamiliar airport, these are applied to any airport that the company airplane has not accessed within the last year, more than a year. When we operate into the unfamiliar airport, we would normally schedule it so that the PIC would be a designated examiner standard or better. If this should prove not practical we'd require captain with more than 1500 hours in type as PIC. If that should also prove to be impossible, the last -- carrier with, say, 1000 hours PIC in type and an instructor-qualified person would go. If we don't have the screws to schedule into -- that meets either -- any of these three criteria then we would not operate into that airport.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Captain Park, we'll refer to Exhibit 2D. 2D page one.

Put it on the screen, please.

(Pause)

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Item three describes the terrain. This is an excerpt from the -- the English translation of the audio-visual presentation used byKorean Air for familiarization with -- with Guam, and item three describes the terrain in the vicinity of the airport. Do you consider that the description of the terrain is adequate or descriptive enough of the terrain on the approach course to runway 6?

THE WITNESS: The audio-visual system is used in general as part of the general education for airport familiarization, and in this case the 803-feet high Mount Macana (ph) is very specifically mentioned. And it also talks about the minimum safe altitudes that are -- that apply to Guam Airport.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: The fact that the -- the refer to Mount -- I hope I'm pronouncing it right --Macaya -- Macana, 803 feet, is located north of the Nimitz VOR and Mount Jumoan (ph) is 11 miles south --south -- southwest, in your estimation is that adequate guidance that there may be a higher terrain in the vicinity of the VOR?

THE WITNESS: I take this to -- I analyze this to mean that there's a -- a mountain near the VOR.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: If you'll refer to page three now of the Exhibit 2D, item 14. Item 14 states, "You will be guided from over Apra (ph) Harbor to localizer. You will then perform a visual approach as in this picture." Do you consider this statement maycondition a pilot to -- to expect a visual approach in all circumstances?

THE WITNESS: I -- we -- I do not feel this way. The reason we teach all pilots at Korean Air that instrument -- flight instrument approaches are safer and perhaps less -- as easier to perform than the visual approach so that even if approach clearance would give us a visual clearance we would ask -- go back and ask for an instrument approach clearance and try to fly that.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Captain Park, how do you consider the 801 accident in the context of CFIT? Do you consider this a CFIT accident?

THE WITNESS: It is incumbent upon the Board to make the final determination as to the classification of 801, whether this is a CFIT accident or not. However, speaking as a pilot I would like to interject my personal opinion on the subject.

I think that the CFIT accident categorization would pretty much require normal operation of instruments, but in the case of the 801 all the information that was available to the pilot was significantly different than the reality as they found it during approach. They anticipated the glide slope to be completely out of service but they have -- had ano flag indication, some sort of indication in the cockpit. The weather factor, the weather conditions that the crew actually ran into were significantly worse than what the ATIS had -- had them expect. Unfortunately, in the process of giving the approach clearance by the CERAP if the -- the approach control had just once more confirmed the glide slope as being out of service to the pilots I think that this accident would -- could have been prevented. That's all.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Captain Park, do you feel that Korean Air pilots by the statement on the -- by the statements that you made about always preparing for a -- an instrument approach conditions them to possibly always expect a electronic glide slope?

THE WITNESS: I would not think so.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: During proficiency checks and type ratings, what is the failure rate for Korean Air pilots?

THE WITNESS: It's difficult for me to say, but based on my experience and knowledge as a manager along the entire spectrum of training I think about four percent. If we were to include the Jaju Abinishio (ph) program, the figure would come up to something like 10 percent would be my guess.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: Do you have any specificfigures on the failure rate among type rating rides?

THE WITNESS: As far as I know, the -- I believe this -- the numbers are about three to four percent with type rating checks.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: What are the most common -- common reasons for failure? Do you know?

THE WITNESS: If you were to take initial training, they may have inadequate systems knowledge. Then they would just fail it simply during the oral phase of the check. For some checks it's usually on procedural matters. Our company has really high standards when it comes to flight -- flight evaluations. For instance, the tolerance for the altitude restrictions is minus zero feet. We have instances where the -- during approaches or departures they would fail for not -- for failing to keep an altitude or remain within track.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: After a pilot receives his type rating in an airplane, what further training does he receive regarding IOE or route qualification?

THE WITNESS: As I said before, after the person gets a type rating they would, depending on the aircraft type, receive further education starting with about 30 hours of ground school for the route. After that education's complete. After the academic portionwe perform 30 take-off and landing practices in the simulators. This process -- this process involves maximum operational limitations for that aircraft, maximum crosswind, maximum tailwind, severe turbulences, wind shear conditions. We give them the opportunity that requires maximum performance on the part of the pilot proficiency and put 'em through that program. After that, simulator training simply.

After they've gone through that then they enter into route training that covers every air field that they will be qualified to fly into from that point. The -- the qualification granted by the KCAB on their route qualification or route experience is --requires one round trip or two one-way flights to that destination in order to be considered qualified by the KCAB. After that they would receive the -- their check rides, and for the smaller aircraft types, meaning the F100 Blocker, F100, and the MD 82, they would receive check directly from a KCAB checker. For the larger aircraft types they would receive check rides through the designated examiners. Once they have passed the check ride then they're route-qualified at that point.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: What is the Korean Air policy for -- let me back up. How -- generally, how many hours does that route qualification take?

THE WITNESS: It differs by aircraft type. For the 747 Classic about 130 hours.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: And that -- that route qualification is -- includes -- or IOE is an integral part as we understand IOE, is that correct?

FIRST OFFICER CHUNG: Would you repeat that question, sir?

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: I said the IOE is a integral part of the route qualification. I mean there's not a separate IOE. It's -- they're done concurrently or consecutively I guess.

THE WITNESS: It is incorporated into the route -- IOE's incorporated into the route.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: What is the Korean Air policy for first officers flying the airplane?

THE WITNESS: We recommend first officers --direct experience in controlling the airplane to improve their proficiency levels.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: What percentage of flight legs or flight segments are flown by first officers?

THE WITNESS: I believe about 30 percent.

CAPTAIN MISENCIK: What percentage of approaches and landings do first officers make?

THE WITNESS: Since we