UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD WASHINGTON, D.C. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x : PUBLIC HEARING IN THE MATTER OF: : : No. DCA COLLISION AND DERAILMENT OF : 99-MR-003 AMTRAK 59, THE CITY OF NEW ORLEANS, : WITH AN EASTBOUND TRACTOR, : Volume I SEMI-TRAILER AT RAILROAD/HIGHWAY : GRADE CROSSING NEAR BOURBONNAIS, : Day I ILLINOIS ON MARCH 15, 1999 : : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x Monday, September 13, 1999 The Guildhall The Ambassador West Hotel The Wyndham Grand Hotel Chicago, Illinois The Public Hearing in the above-entitled matter was convened, at the Ambassador West Hotel, The Guildhall, 1300 North State Parkway, Chicago, Illinois, pursuant to notice, at 9:00 a.m., Before the Board of Inquiry of the National Transportation Safety Board. APPEARANCES: THE BOARD OF INQUIRY: GEORGE W. BLACK, JR., Chairman National Transportation Safety Board JAMES S. DUNN, Hearing Officer ROBERT C. LAUBY, Director Office of Railroad Safety BARRY SWEEDLER, Director Office of Safety Recommendations and Accomplishments CLAUDE HARRIS, Deputy Director Office of Highway Safety APPEARANCES: (Continued) THE TECHNICAL PANEL: TED TURPIN, Operations Specialist Office of Railroad Safety DR. GERALD D. WEEKS, Chief Human Factors Division Office of Railroad Safety RICHARD DOWNS, Survival Factors Specialist, Office of Railroad Safety RUBEN PAYAN, Signal Specialist Office of Railroad Safety BURT SIMON, Human Performance Specialist Office of Highway Safety BYRD RABY, Heavy Vehicle Specialist, Office of Highway Safety THOMAS JACKY, Event Recorder Specialist Office of Research and Engineering MIRIAM KLOEPPEL, Transportation Research Analyst, Office of Research and Engineering PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER TERRY WILLIAMS APPEARANCES (Continued): ADMINISTRATIVE AND TECHNICAL SUPPORT EVELYN HEMINGWAY PARTIES TO THE HEARING: NATIONAL RAILROAD PASSENGER CORPORATION (AMTRAK): LEE W. BULLOCK, President, Amtrak Intercity TRAVIS HINTON, Chief Operating Officer, Amtrak Intercity CHRIS BLACK, Director, Public Affairs T. MICHAEL KERRINE, Associate General Counsel, Tort Litigation GEORGE BINNS, General Manager, Standards and Compliance PETER HALL, Director of Safety, Amtrak Intercity MARK MEANA, Director of Safety, Corporate CLAYTON BROWN, Assistant Vice-President, Corporate Operations CANADIAN NATIONAL/ILLINOIS CENTRAL RAILROAD: ED HARRIS, Vice-President, Midwest Division JOHN PRENDERGAST, Risk Manager CHARLES WEBSTER, General Counsel, U.S. JOHN SHARKEY, General Manager, Communications and Signals APPEARANCES (Continued) CANADIAN NATIONAL/ILLINOIS CENTRAL RAILROAD: (Continued) MYLES TOBIN, Vice-President, U.S. Legal Affairs BOB KEENE FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION: DAVID BLACKMORE, Deputy Regional Administrator ALLEN HALLSTROM, Principle Inspector, Indianapolis JEFF THOMAS, Signal and Train Control Inspector, Chicago ROBERT MYERS, Assistant Grade Crossing and Trespass Manager, Chicago PATTY SMITH, Grade Crossing and Trespass Manager, Chicago FEDERAL HIGHWAY ADMINISTRATION: RUDY UMBS, Chief, Safety Design Division ILLINOIS COMMERCE COMMISSION: MICHAEL STEAD, Rail Safety Program Administrator JOHN BLAIR, Railroad Safety Specialist STAN MILEWSKI, Railroad Safety Specialist DON RICHARDSON, Railroad Safety Specialist, State Coordinator, Illinois Operation Lifesaver BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS: WILLIAM C. WALPERT, Vice-President JOHN P. TOLMAN, Special Representative, International Division LARRY JAMES, Coordinator, Education and Training Department APPEARANCES: (Continued) CARL FIELDS, Safety Task Force TOM O'BRIEN UNITED TRANSPORTATION UNION: THOMAS P. DWYER III, Director MELCO TRANSFER, INC.: MELVIN MARSHALL JUDY MARSHALL BRAD PURCELL, Counsel for Melco Transfer, Inc. C O N T E N T S PAGE Opening Remarks and Introductions 09 Sworn Testimony of Ted Turpin 20 Sworn Testimony of Byrd Raby 27 Sworn Testimony of Angel R. Flores 38 Examination by the Technical Panel 39 Examination by the Canadian National/Illinois Central Railroad 49 Examination by the Illinois Commerce Commission 52 Examination by the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers 53 Examination by the United Transportation Union 56 Examination by the Board of Inquiry 58 Sworn Testimony of Troy Schultz 66 Examination by the Technical Panel 66 Examination by the Federal Highway Administration 83 Examination by the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers 84 Examination by Melco Transfer, Inc. 86 Examination by Amtrak 87 Examination by the Board of Inquiry 93 Sworn Testimony of Cathi S. Oliver 107 Examination by the Technical Panel 108 Examination by the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers 123 Examination by Amtrak 124 Examination by the Board of Inquiry 125 Further Examination by the Technical Panel 132 Sworn Testimony of Aubrey Q. Fosburgh III 135 Examination by the Technical Panel 135 Examination by the Illinois Commerce Commission 151 Examination by the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers 152 Examination by Canadian National/Illinois Central Railroad 153 C O N T E N T S (Continued) PAGE Sworn Testimony of Aubrey Q. Fosburgh III (Continued) Examination by the Federal Highway Administration 156 Examination by the Board of Inquiry 156 Further Examination by the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers 165 Further Examination by the Illinois Commerce Commission 167 Further Examination by the Board of Inquiry 168 Sworn Testimony of Luis Nieves 170 Examination by the Technical Panel 171 Examination by the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers 195 Examination by the United Transportation Union 196 Examination by Melco Transfer, Inc. 197 Examination by Canadian National/Illinois Central Railroad 199 Examination by the Illinois Commerce Commission 201 Examination by the Board of Inquiry 204 Further Examination by Melco Transfer, Inc. 207 Further Examination by the Illinois Commerce Commission 207 Adjournment 210 E X H I B I T S NUMBER IDENTIFIED 2A Photo - Aerial View of Accident 20 2B Photo - Close-up Aerial View of Accident 20 2D Photo - Aerial View of McKnight Road 145 2E Photo - Broken East Gate 156 E X H I B I T S (Continued) NUMBER IDENTIFIED 2F Photo - East Gate Looking East With Broken Tip 156 2H Left Wheel Assembly Rear Axle of Semi-trailer 33 2I Left Wheel Assembly Front Axle of Semi-trailer 33 2J Photo - Right Wheel Assembly Front Axle of Semi-trailer 33 2K Photo - Accident Tractor with Exemplar Semi-trailer and Cargo 32 2L Photo - Beginning of Scrub Mark at Site 29 2M Diagram - Accident Scene 31 2U Plan View, Point of Collision 20 2W Photo - Damage to Lead Locomotive Amtrak Train No. 59 34 5A Photo - Amtrak Fare Collection Hand-held Device 20 P R O C E E D I N G S CHAIRMAN BLACK: This public hearing has been convened by the National Transportation Safety Board under the authority of Section 304(b) of the Independent Safety Board Act of 1974. The hearing is part of the Safety Board's investigation of the accident involving the collision of Amtrak Train Number 59, the City of New Orleans, with an eastbound semi-tractor trailer at a railroad highway grade crossing near Bourbonnais, Illinois on the 15th of March 1999. As a result of the collision, 11 passengers were fatally injured, and 122 passengers and crew members sustained serious or minor injuries. The truck driver sustained minor injuries. Estimated damages exceeded $14 million. I am George Black, a Member of the National Transportation Safety Board and Chairman of these proceedings. The other members of the Board of Inquiry from the National Transportation Safety Board in Washington are, on my far left, Mr. James S. Dunn, who is the Hearing Officer and the Investigator in Charge of the accident. To my left is Mr. Robert C. Lauby, Director of the Office of Railroad Safety. To my right is Mr. Claude Harris, Deputy Director of the Office of Highway Safety, and on the right end of the panel, here on my right, is Mr. Barry Sweedler, Director of the Office of Safety Recommendations and Accomplishments. The action mentioned above is being investigated by the National Transportation Safety Board. We have been assisted in the investigation of this accident by representatives of the parties to this hearing. The purpose of this hearing to extend our field investigation, tests, and interviews and to develop a factual record for determining the probable cause of the accident; two, to report on the facts, conditions, and circumstances collected so far related to this accident; and three, to assist the National Transportation Safety Board in making recommendations to prevent similar accidents from occurring. We are planning on concluding this hearing on Wednesday. This hearing is an administrative fact-finding procedure with no adverse interests and no adverse parties. It is not our purpose to assign blame or to determine legal rights and/or the liabilities of persons or organizations, and the Safety Board will not make any attempt to do so. Matters directly related to such rights and liabilities will be excluded from these proceedings. Pursuant to the Safety Board rules, a prehearing conference was held in Washington, D.C. last week. The prehearing conference was attended by the Members of the Board of Inquiry; the members of the technical panel, and the parties to the hearing. The parties to the hearing, the areas in which they are to be questioned, and the issues to be addressed were discussed and agreed upon by the participants. In addition, exhibits to be introduced into evidence were identified. Copies of the witness list developed for this hearing have been made available. Mr. Terry Williams, a Safety Board Public Affairs Officer, is here to assist the Press and the public, and he can furnish a copy of the witness list and provide access to exhibits. Mr. Williams is assisted by Mr. Phil Frame, also of Public Affairs. I would say I noticed part of the media trying to videotape the exhibits on the placards in the outer office here. They are also available on compact disk in Power Point format. The docket containing the exhibits, the transcript of testimony that will be taken, and all other related materials will be available for inspection at the Safety Board's Washington D.C. Headquarters. Copies of the transcripts, exhibits, and photographs introduced during this hearing may be obtained for a fee from the court reporter. The conduct of this hearing will be governed by the Safety Board's Rules of Practice. Under these rules, the witness will be questioned first by the technical panel, then by the spokesperson for each party, and finally by the Board of Inquiry. Cross-examination in a legal sense will not be permitted. After initial questioning, I may allow a second round for any follow-up questions and/or clarifications. However, I expect the follow-up questions to be limited to those necessary to clarify the record or to address any new matter that has been raised. The formal issues which will be addressed in the public hearing and to which testimony and questioning will be limited are as follows: One, the effectiveness and reliability of current active railroad grade crossing warning devices; two, State, Federal, and Amtrak safety oversight programs; three, the effects of heavy truck traffic volume on the safety of grade crossings; and four, new technologies and grade crossing safety. Although the circumstances of this accident have generated some concern about the status of the truck driver's commercial driver's license at the time of the accident, the Safety Board has chosen to address this issue and others related to it in a future forum. A public hearing scheduled for early next year concerning the crash of a motorcoach in New Orleans, Louisiana on May 5, 1999, the Mother's Day accident which claimed the lives of 22 persons, will address numerous issues relating to commercial drivers licensing at the state and Federal levels. The Safety Board has asked the truck driver involved in this accident to appear as a witness at this hearing, but he declined on advice of his attorney. However, the previous interviews with the truck driver by the Safety Board are a part of the public docket. The parties to this hearing will have the opportunity to submit proposed findings of facts, conclusions, and recommendations to the Board of Inquiry after the close of the hearing. I strongly encourage the parties to make use of this opportunity. If you decide to submit proposed findings, conclusions, and/or recommendations, submit them to the Investigator in Charge, Mr. J.S. Dunn, at the National Transportation Safety Board within 60 days after the close of this hearing. You should also send copies of any such submissions to each of the other parties. If you need the addresses, we will provide them. Any proposals will be made part of the public docket of the investigation and will receive careful consideration during the Safety Board's analysis of evidence in preparation for the final report on this accident. At this time, I would like to introduce the Members of the Safety Board's Technical Panel. Mr. Ted Turpin is an Operations Specialist, Office of Railroad Safety. He is at the table here. Dr. Gerald Weeks, Chief, Human Factors Division, Office of Railroad Safety, is probably somewhere in the back. Mr. Burt Simon, Human Performance Specialist, Office of Railroad Safety, is also in the back. Mr. Ruben Payan, Signal Specialist, Office of Railroad Safety, is also in the back. Mr. Richard Downs, Survival Factors Specialist, Office of Railroad Safety is next to Ruben. Mr. Burt Raby, Highway Heavy Vehicle Specialist, Office of Highway Safety, is at the witness table. Ms. Miriam Kloeppel, Transportation Research Analyst, Office of Research and Engineering, is also in the back; and Mr. Thomas Jacky, Event Recorder Specialist, Office of Research and Engineering, is in the rear next to the window. Also present are Mr. Terry Williams, as I mentioned earlier, from the Safety Board's Office of Public Affairs; and Ms. Evelyn Hemingway, who is over here next to the witness panel, is from the Office of Railroad Safety to offer administrative assistance. I would also like to recognize, first of all, the families of some of the victims of this tragedy who are seated to my left at the tables in the front. We are glad they could be here today to witness this hearing. Also present here today is a Past Chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board. Mr. Jim Burnett (phonetic) is observing today. We also have Mr. Jamie Finch (phonetic), in the audience who is the Director of Government, Public, and Family Affairs for the Safety Board; Ms. Betty Scott (phonetic), who is the Deputy Director of that organization for Government Affairs. We have Mr. Dwight Foster, who is the Deputy Director of the Office of Railroad Safety somewhere here; Ms. Deb Smith (phonetic), who is the Special Assistant to Chairman Jim Hall. We have Carolyn Dargan (phonetic), as the Conference Planning Specialist who has made this thing operate. She is somewhere around. Ms. Candy Venes (phonetic), who is my Confidential Assistant, is also helping Carolyn with the event, and Anton Downs (phonetic), is offering technical services to our operation here today. I will now call on the parties to the hearing and ask each spokesperson to stand and identify themselves, their affiliation with the party they represent, and introduce those other persons at their party's table. The National Railroad Passenger Corporation, Amtrak? MR. BULLOCK: Lee Bullock, President of Amtrak Intercity. MR. HINTON: Travis Hinton, Chief Operating Officer, Amtrak Intercity. MR. BLACK: Chris Black, Director of Public Affairs. MR. KERRINE: Michael Kerrine, Associate General Counsel, Amtrak. MR. BINNS: George Binns, General Manager, Standards and Compliance. MR. HALL: Peter Hall, Director of Safety, Amtrak Intercity. MR. MEANA: Mark Meana Director of Safety, Corporate. MR. BROWN: Clayton Brown, Assistant Vice-President, Corporate Operations. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Thank you. The Canadian National/Illinois Central Railroad? MR. HARRIS: Ed Harris, Vice-President, Midwest Division, CNIC. MR. PRENDERGAST: John Prendergast, Risk Manager. MR. WEBSTER: Charles Webster, General Counsel, U.S. MR. SHARKEY: John Sharkey, General Manager, Communications and Signals. MR. TOBIN: Myles Tobin, Vice-President U.S. Legal Affairs. MR. KEENE: Bob Keene. CHAIRMAN BLACK: The Federal Railroad Administration? MR. BLACKMORE: David Blackmore, Deputy Regional Administrator with FRA in Chicago. Immediately to my left, I have Allen Hallstrom, who is a Principle Regional Inspector at Indianapolis. Next to him on my farther left is Jeff Thomas, Signal and Train Control Inspector in Chicago. In the far left corner is Bob Myers (phonetic), who is Assistant Grade Cross and Trespass Manager in Chicago; and the next one is Patty Smith (phonetic), who is our Grade Crossing and Trespass Manager in Chicago. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Thank you, sir. I see the Federal Highway Administration is still trying to get here from Washington I assume. The Illinois Commerce Commission? MR. STEAD: My name is Mike Stead, Rail Safety Program Administrator for the Transportation Division, Illinois Commerce Commission. MR. BLAIR: John Blair, Railroad Safety Specialist, Illinois Commerce Commission. MR. MILEWSKI: Stan Milewski, Railroad Safety Specialist. MR. RICHARDSON: Don Richardson, Railroad Safety Specialist, State Coordinator, Illinois Operation Lifesaver. CHAIRMAN BLACK: The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers? MR. WALPERT: I am William Walpert, Vice-President, Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers. On my left, I have John Tolman, who is a Special Representative and Zone Leader for our Safety Task Force. On my right is Larry James (phonetic), who is the Coordinator of our Education and Training Department. Also, we have here Carl Fields (phonetic), who assisted in the accident investigation from the Safety Task Force and Tom O'Brien (phonetic), who also assisted in the accident investigation. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Thank you, sir. United Transportation Union? MR. DWYER: Tom Dwyer, United Transportation Union, Transportation Safety Team. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Sir, are you the only representative to UTU? MR. DWYER: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Melco Transfer? MR. MARSHALL: Melvin Marshall, President of Melco, and my wife, Judy. I will let this man introduce himself. MR. PURCELL: Counsel for Melco Transfer, Brad Purcell. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Thank you for your patience in listening to this what I call boilerplate. At this point, the Hearing Officer, Mr. Jim Dunn, will introduce the exhibits to be used in the hearing. Then we will begin calling the witnesses and taking the testimony. MR. DUNN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A prehearing conference was held in Washington, D.C. at Headquarters on September 7th. At this prehearing conference, the witness list and all the exhibits were gone over and agreed to by all the parties, so I will not go over every exhibit we did at the prehearing. Four exhibits were added to the docket and to this hearing. They were Exhibits 2U, 2B, and 2W, and 5A. Copies of those exhibits have been distributed to the parties -- they are on your tables -- plus the CD ROM with the entire docket. So, I will, at this time, call the first witness to this hearing. Mr. Ted Turpin, would you please stand. SWORN TESTIMONY OF TED TURPIN MR. DUNN: Mr. Turpin, who are you employed by? MR. TURPIN: National Transportation Safety Board. MR. DUNN: For how long? MR. TURPIN: For three years. MR. DUNN: What are your duties and responsibilities? MR. TURPIN: I am an Accident Investigator, and I specialize in Operations. MR. DUNN: Were you the investigator on the Bourbonnais accident? MR. TURPIN: Yes; I was the Group Chairman for Operations. MR. DUNN: I understand you have an overview of the accident for us. MR. TURPIN: That is correct. MR. DUNN: If you would. MR. TURPIN: Good morning, Ladies and Gentlemen. On Monday, March 15, 1999, about 9:47 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time, a southbound Amtrak Train Number 59, the City of New Orleans, consisting of two locomotive units and 14 cars derailed when it struck an eastbound truck tractor semi-trailer at a railroad highway grade crossing near Bourbonnais, Illinois. The accident occurred at McKnight Road where it crosses the Illinois Central Railroad track about 51 miles south of Chicago. As a result of the collision, 11 passengers riding in the third car, the sleeping car, were fatally injured. Also, 122 passengers and crew members sustained serious or minor injuries. The temperature was 30 degrees, and the skies were clear. Train Number 59 departed Chicago three minutes late at 8:03 p.m. on March 15, 1999. The engineer reported that prior to leaving Chicago, he inspected the headlight and ditch lights. He said that they were working properly. He also said that after departing Chicago, the ditch lights oscillated properly at the crossings when he was blowing the horn. In addition, he stated he had numerous opportunities to use the brakes on the train, and they responded properly. Just prior to the accident, the conductor stated that he had conversed by radio with the engineer about an upcoming 40 mile per hour speed restriction at mile post 55.6. He explained he was walking through the coach behind the diner when he heard the train brakes apply in emergency, felt a bump, thought the train accelerated, and then the car rolled over on its side. The assistant conductor stated he was attempting to reach the operating crew's office in the dormer transition car. He said was in the vestibule when he heard a loud bang. The car started riding roughly. He described it like being on a pony ride, and then he struck his head against something. The engineer stated that as he neared the McKnight Road crossing, he saw a truck slowly moving through the crossing. He said that he blew the train whistle to warn the truck driver. He said when he realized that the truck would not clear the crossing, he applied the train's brakes. However, the train could not stop before hitting the truck. The engineer was unable to recall if the warning lights were functioning at the crossing. He also could not recall the position of the gates at the crossing. According to the event recorder in the lead locomotive, the train was traveling an authorized speed of 79 miles per hour immediately before the collision. The truck had been loaded with 60 feet long three quarter inch diameter steel reinforcing rods, sometimes referred to as rebar, at the Birmingham Steel Company plant near the accident location. The truck's gross vehicle weight was 74,800 pounds. The truck left the plant compound, turned right on McKnight Road, and traveled about five hundred feet to the railroad crossing which was protected by warning lights and gates. The truck driver stated he was moving between 15 and 20 miles per hour and had begun traversing the crossing when the warning lights activated. The National Transportation Safety Board's investigation revealed that the train struck the truck at its trailer's last axle. Also after derailing, the passenger train struck two freight cars that were parked on an adjacent siding west of the main track. The nearest car was a gondola loaded with bars of steel. The second car was a covered hopper loaded with fly ash. A fire also erupted from ruptured locomotive diesel fuel tanks. When the train came to a stop, the engineer stated that he contacted the assistant conductor and the engineer with his radio. The engineer stated that he was trapped inside the locomotive. The assistant conductor said that he would go help the engineer. The conductor remained at the car and helped passengers evacuate. The Safety Board was notified of the accident about 1:30 a.m. A Safety Board go team was launched with investigators from Headquarters in Washington, D.C. and from its regional offices in Los Angeles, Chicago, and Atlanta. The Safety Board was aided in the investigation by the Federal Railroad Administration, the Federal Highway Administration, Illinois Commerce Commission, Amtrak, the Illinois Central Railroad, now the Canadian National/Illinois Central, the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, the United Transportation Union, the Bourbonnais Fire and Rescue, and the state and local police. I will now present a short video. Some of the video is of the wreckage soon after the collision. Portions contain graphic scenes of the aftermath. Please do not feel compelled to watch if you believe this will be disturbing to you. (Video Shown.) MR. TURPIN: This opening scene was taken approximately an hour after the collision. These shots are at ground level from the southwest. As the camera moves to the left, it shows the Birmingham Steel Company plant and the staging area for the emergency response. Next is a nighttime aerial view of the derailment. Now, the shot is zooming in on the fire fighters attempting to extinguish the fire. Again, we see the staging area for the emergency responders. The local community responded to the accident with 47 ambulances, 16 tankers, 14 engines, 2 phone units, and 21 technicians. Also on the scene were numerous police officers, doctors, hospital personnel, the Salvation Army, and the American Red Cross. Several commendable individuals from the nearby Birmingham Steel Company, Simms Metal Company, and close-by private citizens assisted in the response to the accident. Now, the aerial view will move to the north and show the crossing where the collision occurred. Zooming in, you can see the truck trailer and where it came to rest after being struck by the train. Here is the view on the following day. The cars of the train have been separated to clear McKnight Road. This is a final scene taken several days later. It depicts an overview from the same direction the train was traveling. Note the grain elevators to the right and the parked railroad cars beside the main track, and finally, the McKnight Road crossing. This concludes my presentation. I will turn the proceeding back over to Mr. Dunn. MR. DUNN: Thank you very much, Mr. Turpin. (Witness excused.) MR. DUNN: It is about 9:30 a.m., and the National Transportation Safety Board calls its next witness, Mr. Byrd Raby. SWORN TESTIMONY OF MR. BYRD RABY MR. DUNN: Mr. Raby, for the record would you please state and spell your entire name. MR. RABY: Byrd Raby; B-y-r-d, R-a-b-y. MR. DUNN: Mr. Raby, are you also employed by the National Transportation Safety Board? MR. RABY: Yes, I am. MR. DUNN: For how long? MR. RABY: Fourteen years. MR. DUNN: What are your duties and responsibilities? MR. RABY: I work in the Office of Highway Safety. I am a Highway Accident Investigator Specialist for Heavy Vehicles. MR. DUNN: Were you also on the Bourbonnais accident? MR. RABY: Yes, I was. I was Chairman of the Highway Heavy Vehicle Group. MR. DUNN: I understand you also have an opening statement. MR. RABY: Yes, I do. MR. DUNN: Would you proceed. MR. RABY: The scene of the accident where the City of New Orleans collided with a tractor semi-trailer on March 15, 1999 at the highway railroad grade crossing of McKnight Road and the Illinois Central tracks was documented by the NTSB Highway Factors Group from March 16th to March 19th, 1999. Documentation consists of measurements and physical characteristics of the crossing and highway approach, the marks left by the truck and the point of final rest of the truck. In addition, the Vehicle Factors Group examined the mechanical condition of the truck, collision evidence on the truck, and collision evidence on the front of the Amtrak locomotive, the lead locomotive. The highway evidence is documented in the Highway Factors facts report located in the exhibit book under the Tab 3(b). The vehicle evidence is documented in the Vehicle Group facts report, which is not part of the exhibit book. However, it is available in the public docket. I will now present the Highway and Vehicle exhibits for this hearing. The first is Exhibit 2A. This is an aerial view of the accident. On the photograph, the tracks are aligned horizontally running left to right, north being to the right of the photograph. McKnight Road is aligned vertically, west being the top of the photograph, and the road runs east and west. The train was traveling southbound on the tracks, and the semi-trailer was going eastbound on McKnight Road. In the upper left corner is the steel plant from which the accident truck had exited shortly before the accident. The driver stopped at the scales. The scale house is located here (indicating). You can see the trucks lined up and coming across the scales in this particular photograph. After being weighed, the truck comes into the parking lot here (indicating). Sometimes, they come out the exit in this way, or if they have room, they can swing around in here, and they secure the load and tarp it before proceeding. Then the trucks leave the exit and come down McKnight Road and cross the tracks on to the main highway just beyond the tracks here. The collision occurred at the intersection of McKnight Road and the railroad tracks located here (indicating). The next exhibit is Exhibit 2L. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Mr. Raby? MR. RABY: Yes, sir? CHAIRMAN BLACK: Let me ask a clarification question: This truck did not make that loop through the yard though, did it? MR. RABY: Yes. They had to secure the load. When a truck comes into the plant, they come in here (indicating). They enter the parking lot, and they announce on their CB radio to the scale house operator that they are there. The scale house calls into the main office of the plant and informs them the truck is there for delivery. When they are ready for them to load, then the scale house notifies the truck. The truck comes in, crosses the scales, weighs the truck, goes in, they load it, and he comes back out and weighs again so they can get the weight of the steel. Then he parks in this lot, and he has to secure the load. They don't secure the load in the plant. As I said, depending on the amount of activity here, generally, they can swing inside the parking lot, make a loop in there and park. Some of them back over here (indicating). They pull around back in here and secure the loads. This is the entrance to the parking lot, and this is the exit. They are marked. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Okay. MR. RABY: The next is 2L. This photograph was taken by the Bureau of Crime Scene Services of the Illinois State Police. It shows the tire marks attributed to a set of tires on the forward axle of the trailer. I know the photograph is not that well, but this break in the crossing here is the center line, about the center line of McKnight Road. This would be the eastbound lane. This would be the westbound lane here. Right here is where the tire marks start to show up just to the north of the center line of McKnight Road, and they continue across with a little bit of zigzagging until they get here. There is another tire mark here and a tire mark here, and there is a third one over here on the rail itself. This would be the number four axle of the tractor semi-trailer. The next exhibit will be 2M. This is a graphic that makes it a little easier to see the crossing. It is based on observations and measurements and the police photographs as the ones just previously seen. As you can see, there is the westbound lane of McKnight Road. The center line is depicted there, and here, these are the gates. This is the east gate. This would be the west gate, the main line track. This is the siding track. The photograph previously shows that the tire marks start right about here just past that joint in the crossing and continue across the track and end about here, and these are the other three scrub marks we found on the track. The next exhibit will be 2K. This is a photograph of the actual tractor. That is the actual accident tractor connected to an exemplary semi-trailer loaded with the same type and approximate weight load of steel that was used on the accident semi-trailer. This semi-trailer was furnished to us by the carrier, which is the same manufacturer and model as the accident trailer, and the steel was furnished by the steel plant and loaded in the same configuration as best they can recall of the accident truck. For clarification to the hearing, you may hear the axles referred to as the front axle of the trailer or the rear axle of the trailer. However, this is a five axle rig, so we also give a number to the axles. Number one, of course, being the front two, three, four, and five (indicating). So, you could hear these axles referred to as the front axle of the trailer or the number four axle just for clarification. On this vehicle, the distance between these two axles is ten feet, and the overall length from the front bumper of the tractor to the end of the load hanging out here is approximately 77 feet that whole rig. The next exhibit is 2H. This is a photograph of the left wheel assembly of the rear axle of the accident trailer or axle number five. Note that the tire, of course, is deflated, and the rim has severe impact damage all around it. The center hose is torn lose. This is the only wheel on the truck that has this type of damage. The next exhibit is 2I. This would be the left forward axle or axle number four, the left wheel of the accident semi-trailer at its final resting position at the scene. The interesting thing to look at here are these imprints on the trailer tire and some scrape marks. They run diagonally across the tread. They are at approximately 90 degree angles, the scrape marks too. That is axle number four, the left wheel assembly of axle number four, the front axle of the trailer. The next exhibit will be 2J. This would be the right wheel assembly of that same axle and its final resting position. Note there are no scrape marks on this set of tires. This item here is mud. That is mud that was splashed on the tires. Those are not scrape marks. I should note that on this actual assembly, the spring brakes -- that is the rubber air ride system there. This is the front train and the truss bar, but the brakes on this particular axle are equipped with the required spring power parking brake. The spring is held compressed by air, so if there is ever a loss of air pressure, the mechanical forces of the spring apply the brakes. In this case, as soon as the truck was hit, air lines were ruptured, there was a loss of air pressure, and these brakes were applied. So, these wheels came to pretty much of a stop right at the accident. They didn't sit there and roll around or anything. The last exhibit would be 2W. These are pictures of the front lead locomotive after it was righted and sitting back up on the tracks during the recovery process. I realize this a photograph you cannot see that well, but what it depicts is, it shows here in the front here, the coupling is right here (indicating), the coupling unit. Just above that is the cowling of the front of the locomotive. When you see the actual photograph, you will see similar to what you see here. You will see the marks which resemble the marking of the rebar print on it. They come across the front, around the corner, and down the side. It is a distance of ten feet from the center of the train where the coupling is, around this corner down to where the rebar stops. The measurement from the back of the trailer from the end of the rebar to the center of axle number five is ten feet. This photograph here is right there (indicating). It is a close-up of that area right there, that little separation of the front cowling. It shows the marks, the little rib-looking marks of the rebar. In my report, I have close-ups of this corner where you can see the photographs show that where those marks wrap around the corner, there is bluing in the indentures which would indicate heat. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Mr. Raby, would you tell everybody what rebar is. MR. RABY: Yes. Rebar is, I guess, the acronym for steel concrete reinforcing bar. They are the bars used in concrete anywhere, but in this particular case, this rebar was probably used in construction. It is of rather large diameter, but it is the steel placed in new concrete to reinforce it. CHAIRMAN BLACK: These ran the entire length of the truck? They were 60 feet long? MR. RABY: Sixty feet long. CHAIRMAN BLACK: They have little notches on them so they will dig into the concrete and hold. That is what produced the little dots that are on the picture. MR. RABY: This is factual, but you are correct. CHAIRMAN BLACK: I understand. MR. RABY: That completes my presentation, Mr. Dunn. MR. DUNN: Thank you very much, Mr. Raby. I will turn it back to the Chairman who wants to go out to the parties to see if they have questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Let's start in the order they were introduced, and then I will rotate the order. Another thing we might do, Carolyn, you might, since a couple of the parties are at back tables, we might rotate the party locations over the two or three days so we will give everybody a chance to be on the front row here. You can take care of that. Amtrak first. MR. BULLOCK: We have no questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Canadian National/Illinois Central? MR. ED HARRIS: We have no questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Federal Railroad? MR. BLACKMORE: No questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Federal Highway has no questions because they are not here. ICC? MR. STEAD: No questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: The Federal Highway has arrived. Rudy, your table is over here (indicating). We were holding it for you. Do you have any questions, Rudy? MR. UMBS: No, I don't. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Why don't you introduce yourself. MR. UMBS: I am Rudy Umbs with the Federal Highway Administration. I am Chief of the Safety Design Division. CHAIRMAN BLACK: ICC? MR. STEAD: No questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: The BLE? MR. WALPERT: No questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: UTU? MR. DWYER: No questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Melco? MR. MARSHALL: No questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Thank you. MR. DUNN: Thank you very much. You may step down. (Witness excused.) MR. DUNN: The National Transportation Safety Board calls as its next witness Angel R. Flores. SWORN TESTIMONY OF ANGEL R. FLORES, MR. DUNN: Thank you very much. The time is 9:45. Mr. Flores, for the record, would you please state and spell your full name. MR. FLORES: My name is Angel R. Flores, A-n-g-e-l, R, and then F-l-o-r-e-s. MR. DUNN: Who do you have with you today? MR. FLORES: Mr. Scott Wright, my local union representative. MR. DUNN: Mr. Wright, would you please spell your full name for us. MR. WRIGHT: Scott, S-c-o-t-t; W-r-i-g-h-t. MR. DUNN: Thank you. Mr. Flores, who are you employed by? MR. FLORES: National Transportation Passenger Service, Amtrak. MR. DUNN: What is your occupation? MR. FLORES: Locomotive Engineer. MR. DUNN: For about how many years have you worked as a locomotive engineer? MR. FLORES: Almost 25 years. MR. DUNN: Were you the locomotive engineer on the Amtrak Train 59 on March 15, 1999? MR. FLORES: Yes, sir, I was. MR. DUNN: At this time, I will turn the questioning over to Dr. Gerald Weeks from the Safety Board. EXAMINATION BY THE TECHNICAL PANEL MR. WEEKS: Good morning, Mr. Flores. MR. FLORES: Good morning. MR. WEEKS: Mr. Flores, first, I am going to have a few background questions about your certification and work schedule as a locomotive engineer. Then I will turn the questioning over to Mr. Turpin. You stated you had a long history as a locomotive engineer. My first question is: Do you recall when you were last recertified as an engineer? MR. FLORES: No, I can't remember. MR. WEEKS: Are you currently certified as an engineer? MR. FLORES: Yes, sir. MR. WEEKS: What is the length of the certification period? How frequently are you recertified? MR. FLORES: I think every three years. MR. WEEKS: As part of that certification or otherwise, do you recall when your last vision and hearing examination was? MR. FLORES: I am not sure, but maybe last March. MR. WEEKS: In the course of that examination, did they take any exceptions to your vision or hearing? MR. FLORES: No. MR. WEEKS: Do you wear corrective eyeglasses or contact lenses? MR. FLORES: No, sir, I don't. MR. WEEKS: When was the date of your last complete physical examination prior to March? MR. FLORES: Just before my last birthday. MR. WEEKS: When would that be? MR. FLORES: September 25th. MR. WEEKS: Last fall? MR. FLORES: Yes, sir. MR. WEEKS: Again, did they note any exceptions in the course of your physical examination? MR. FLORES: No. MR. WEEKS: In the three days or so prior to the accident, did you take any prescription medications? MR. FLORES: No. MR. WEEKS: In that same time period, three days prior to the accident, did you take any over-the-counter medications such as pain relievers or cold remedies? MR. FLORES: No. MR. WEEKS: Are you qualified on the physical characteristics of the territory that you were operating on that March 15th? MR. FLORES: Yes, sir, I am. MR. WEEKS: Do you recall the date of your qualification on that territory or requalification? MR. FLORES: No, I can't remember. MR. WEEKS: Would that have been done in conjunction with your recertification? Do they do that at the same time? MR. FLORES: No, I don't think so. I think, you know, the recertification is conducted at one time, and then the requalification some other time. MR. WEEKS: How long have you been assigned to that territory? MR. FLORES: Twelve years. MR. WEEKS: Can you estimate in that period how many trips or round trips you have made over that territory, or would it be easy to pick a narrower time frame, let's say from January to March? MR. FLORES: No, I can't exactly. MR. WEEKS: Can you estimate it on a monthly or a weekly basis? MR. FLORES: Four days per week probably. MR. WEEKS: On March 15th in the early morning, were you assigned to Train 58, the Train 58 job north to Chicago? MR. FLORES: Yes, I was. MR. WEEKS: Where did you board Train 58? MR. FLORES: I could not hear you. MR. WEEKS: Where did you start that job? MR. FLORES: Carbondale. MR. WEEKS: At about what time did you depart Carbondale on that early morning of the 15th? MR. FLORES: Well, around 3, between 3:30 and 3:45. MR. WEEKS: When did you arrive in Chicago? MR. FLORES: I was scheduled to arrive Chicago that day at 9:30, 9:45, and I probably got there that day about ten, ten something. MR. WEEKS: Between the time you arrived in Chicago about ten, as you say, in the morning and the time you reported for duty that evening, would you describe your activities during the day. MR. FLORES: I really didn't have that much of activities that particular day. I went to have breakfast, and then as I remember, I went back to bed and rested until it was time for me to go to work. MR. WEEKS: You got off duty and went to breakfast? MR. FLORES: Yes, sir. MR. WEEKS: Do you have lodging facilities? MR. FLORES: Yes, we have lodging facilities in Chicago at the Quality Inn. MR. WEEKS: So, you returned to the Quality Inn. Did you sleep most of the day, or can you estimate the length of time that you would have rested or slept? MR. FLORES: I probably slept over eight hours. MR. WEEKS: What time were you called for Train 59 that evening? MR. FLORES: I think I was on duty around 7, 7:30. MR. WEEKS: Did you have dinner that evening before going on duty? MR. FLORES: Yes, I did have some dinner at the station. MR. WEEKS: At the station? MR. FLORES: Yes, sir. MR. WEEKS: Those are all the questions I have at the moment. I turn it over to Mr. Turpin. MR. TURPIN: Good morning, Mr. Flores. MR. FLORES: Morning. MR. TURPIN: Why don't we just backtrack a little bit just to somewhat of your career. When did you start working with a railroad? MR. FLORES: I started working for the railroad in 1970 at Santa Fe Railroad. MR. TURPIN: Where was that at? MR. FLORES: Kansas City, Kansas. MR. TURPIN: What were you doing? MR. FLORES: I was working on the section gang, and eventually, I become a locomotive engineer in 1976. MR. TURPIN: For the Santa Fe? MR. FLORES: Yes. I worked from 1976 until the time that I transferred to Amtrak, which it was 1987. MR. TURPIN: 1987? MR. FLORES: Yes. MR. TURPIN: For those years, that was freight operations? MR. FLORES: Freight, correct. MR. TURPIN: Let's go to March 15th. If you would, please describe your trip out of Chicago. MR. FLORES: Well, the best I remember is that I reported for duty around 7:30, and I waited around at the GB Office to get my general orders, checked the bulletin board to see if there is something that will affect me that particular day. After that, I waited for the conductor to get the okay and that general orders that I use on my trip returning from Chicago. Then I proceeded to check the entire train, check the engines to see if everything was working properly. After doing so, I went back to the head end and checked with my conductor to tell him that I was ready to go whenever he was. MR. TURPIN: Did you perform an air test on the train? MR. FLORES: I performed an air test leaving Chicago, but I checked that the brakes were checked before that by checking all the paper work for that particular train on that day. MR. TURPIN: Was everything working properly? MR. FLORES: Everything was okay. MR. TURPIN: After leaving Chicago, what was your first stop? MR. FLORES: My first stop was Homewood. MR. TURPIN: Do you recall how long you were in Homewood? MR. FLORES: No, I can't remember. MR. TURPIN: Did anything special transpire at Homewood? MR. FLORES: Not that I remember. MR. TURPIN: Do you recall what time you left Homewood? MR. FLORES: No, I can't. MR. TURPIN: What was the purpose for the stop at Homewood? MR. FLORES: Well, it is a regular stop. I left off some passengers. So, we stop regular at that station. MR. TURPIN: Let's move on down towards McKnight Road. If you would, just explain to me, as you approached Bourbonnais, basically what was going on and what you recall. MR. FLORES: The only thing I remember is that approaching that location, I saw a truck on the crossing moving slowly, and I just started blowing the horn and started applying the brakes. After that, I put the train in emergency, and that is the best I remember. MR. TURPIN: It has been a while since we have talked specifically about that crossing. Since then, have you recalled? Do you know if the lights were flashing or if the gates were in the down position? MR. FLORES: No, I can't remember. MR. TURPIN: Have you ever had a crossing accident in the past? MR. FLORES: Yes, I have. MR. TURPIN: Could you expand on that and explain some of those. MR. FLORES: Well, I had an accident a couple of years back around Mattoon, Illinois, and it involved a fatality at the crossing. MR. TURPIN: Was that a truck or a car? MR. FLORES: It was a car. MR. TURPIN: Did you place the train in emergency then? MR. FLORES: Yes, sir, I did. MR. TURPIN: Again, you were unable to stop? MR. FLORES: That is correct. MR. TURPIN: Have you had any close calls where the car or truck was just clear the crossing? MR. FLORES: Yes, I have those too. MR. TURPIN: Have you ever placed the train in emergency in those circumstances? MR. FLORES: I can't remember. MR. TURPIN: This is really hard, and just give me the way you feel about this. How do you decide to put the train in emergency when there is a vehicle on the crossing? MR. FLORES: Well, this is a judgment call. Your experience, the time you have worked, will tell you when to do that, and you do the best you can. MR. TURPIN: Thank you. Have you ever considered the Kankakee, Bourbonnais area as being different than other areas as far as the crossings? MR. FLORES: No, I never. MR. TURPIN: Are there any particular areas between Carbondale and Chicago that you are concerned about as far as crossings or that have more than the normal near misses? MR. FLORES: Well, no. I am concerned about every crossing actually. MR. TURPIN: Thank you. As just kind of a general statement, do you have any suggestions at all, as a locomotive engineer, as to how you might improve crossings? MR. FLORES: Not at this time. I just can't tell you something that specific. MR. TURPIN: Thank you, Mr. Flores. Mr. Dunn, I am done questioning. MR. DUNN: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN BLACK: The party, the Canadian National/Illinois Central Railroad? MR. ED HARRIS: CNIC, were you calling us, Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN BLACK: Yes, sir. EXAMINATION BY THE CANADIAN NATIONAL/ILLINOIS CENTRAL RAILROAD MR. ED HARRIS: Mr. Flores, I am Ed Harris of the Canadian National/Illinois Central. It is nice to see you again. You will remember we rode on 392 out of Carbondale about a year ago. MR. FLORES: Yes, sir, I remember. MR. ED HARRIS: Mr. Flores, I have a couple of questions. Number one, you had stated that as you were coming upon the McKnight crossing, you saw the truck moving at a slow rate of speed. Earlier comments by Mr. Turpin indicated the driver said he was moving 15 to 20 miles an hour. Can you recall or make a recollection of the actual speed in line with what you saw? MR. FLORES: I cannot tell you the actual speed of the truck. To me, it was moving slowly, and that is all I can tell you. MR. ED HARRIS: That is fine, Mr. Flores. I was just looking for a point of clarification. This may be a particularly hard question to answer, and if you don't recall, I certainly do understand based on the circumstances. Mr. Flores, after the accident and the engine was on its side, do you remember Mr. John Tuckett climbing up the side of the engine and opening the door and checking on your condition? MR. FLORES: I remember Mr. Tuckett talking to me, but he did not open no door or nothing. MR. ED HARRIS: Did he holler through the doorway or through the window or anything like that? MR. FLORES: He was saying something, but I could not hear what he was saying. MR. ED HARRIS: That is understandable, and I certainly do appreciate that. Mr. Tuckett had mentioned to us that he had remembered you saying, that you had made the comment that the truck had gone around the gates. Do you remember that comment? MR. FLORES: No, sir, I don't. MR. ED HARRIS: That is fine. Those are all the questions I have, sir. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Could you identify who Mr. Tuckett is for the record. MR. ED HARRIS: John Tuckett is a local track supervisor that lives in the Bourbonnais area, and he is responsible for track maintenance and track repair in that particular area. Mr. Tuckett had heard of the accident over a radio, literally heard the accident happen, and scooted right over to the accident scene to assist in whatever way he could. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Mr. Dunn, have we interviewed this gentleman, Mr. Tuckett? MR. DUNN: I don't recall. Do you have a statement from Mr. Tuckett? Would you please give me his name so we can talk to him also. CHAIRMAN BLACK: We don't need to do it right now. If you could, supply it if we have another person to give information to the hearing. MR. ED HARRIS: We would be more than happy to do that. We have that statement on file. I am sure, Jim, the statement was offered to you folks. CHAIRMAN BLACK: I don't recall it, and I have read the whole thing. I don't recall seeing it. Federal Railroad? MR. BLACKMORE: No questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Federal Highway Administration? MR. UMBS: No questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: The Illinois Commerce Commission? EXAMINATION BY THE ILLINOIS COMMERCE COMMISSION MR. STEAD: Mr. Flores, can you recall where the truck was located when you first saw it and first identified there was a truck? Was he on the tracks or was he near the tracks? MR. FLORES: It was on the crossing when I first saw the truck. Yes, that is the best I remember. MR. STEAD: You said he was on the tracks. Was the entire tractor and trailer on the tracks, or what portion of the truck was on the tracks? MR. FLORES: Well, the front portion was on the crossing when I first saw the truck. MR. STEAD: Did you notice any other vehicles in the area of the crossing at that time? MR. FLORES: No, I didn't. MR. STEAD: Can you estimate how much time transpired between the time you first saw the truck and the time you impacted the truck? MR. FLORES: No, I cannot. MR. STEAD: Can you estimate how far back from the crossing you were, you and the train were, at the time you first saw the truck? MR. FLORES: No, I cannot. MR. STEAD: No further questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Thank you. The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers? EXAMINATION BY THE BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS MR. WALPERT: We have a few questions, thank you. Good morning. MR. FLORES: Good morning. MR. WALPERT: You spoke earlier that you became a locomotive engineer in 1976. Were you required to go through any specific training program to become a locomotive engineer? MR. FLORES: Yes, I was. MR. WALPERT: How long was that program approximately? MR. FLORES: 10 to 13 months. MR. WALPERT: Thank you. Were you required to pass examinations to become a locomotive engineer? MR. FLORES: Yes, oral and written examinations; simulator school also. MR. WALPERT: Where was the simulator school? MR. FLORES: Topeka, Kansas. MR. WALPERT: Have you been back to simulator school since that time? MR. FLORES: No. MR. WALPERT: Are you familiar with a program called Critical Incident Stress Debriefing? MR. FLORES: No, I am not. MR. WALPERT: You don't know whether or not Amtrak has such a program in effect? MR. FLORES: I can't remember. MR. WALPERT: Were you offered any sort of debriefing to cope with the accident subsequent to the accident? MR. FLORES: Not immediately. MR. WALPERT: At the McKnight Road crossing, have you seen the gates being activated in the past? I know you say you don't recollect in this particular case. Do you recall seeing them activated in other trips? MR. FLORES: Yes, I remember that. MR. WALPERT: So, you are familiar with what that would look like in the event they were activated? MR. FLORES: Yes, sir. MR. WALPERT: Have you ever seen trucks go around the activated gates at this crossing before? MR. FLORES: No. MR. WALPERT: Do you recall if there were cars, rail cars, on the siding that may have restricted you in any way? MR. FLORES: No, I can't recall that. MR. WALPERT: Mr. Turpin asked a question. I am going to ask it a little more specifically. From your point of view, do you have any changes that you think could be made to prevent this sort of thing from happening again? MR. FLORES: Well, I am a little bit concerned about the engine turning over. Through all these years that I have worked for the railroad, I never, you know, have any incidents or heard about that the engine turned so easily to me. Immediately after that accident, there was another engine that turned over. So, I would like to maybe think to check the design or something. I don't know. Maybe there is something we can find out with the engine. MR. WALPERT: Something that needs to be investigated? MR. FLORES: Maybe. MR. WALPERT: Thank you, Angel. That is all I have for now. CHAIRMAN BLACK: The United Transportation Union? EXAMINATION BY THE UNITED TRANSPORTATION UNION MR. DWYER: Mr. Flores, did you hear the testimony of Mr. Raby about the crossing, the gentleman who spoke about the truck? MR. FLORES: Would you please repeat that. MR. DWYER: There was a slide which showed the crossing at McKnight Road. I am wondering if you can recall what the location of the truck was. Was it in the middle of the crossing or was it towards you? How was the truck positioned on the crossing? Can you recall that? CHAIRMAN BLACK: We can put up that slide again if you would like. You are talking about the aerial photograph? MR. DWYER: I am talking about the actual, yes, from the crossing. CHAIRMAN BLACK: I think that was the first one, the one that shows the whole area. MR. DWYER: If the train is headed south, Mr. Flores, was the truck in the middle of the crossing? MR. FLORES: No, it was not in the middle. It was around there, a little bit farther. When I first saw the truck, it was around that location (indicating). MR. DWYER: The truck was coming across the crossing, in railroad terms, against the current of traffic? MR. FLORES: You say that the truck was coming against the current traffic? MR. DWYER: Was he on the wrong side of the street on the crossing? MR. FLORES: I could not tell you. MR. DWYER: I have no further questions. Thank you, Mr. Flores. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Melco? MR. MARSHALL: No questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Thank you, sir. Dr. Sweedler? EXAMINATION BY THE BOARD OF INQUIRY MR. SWEEDLER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome, Mr. Flores. I have just a couple of questions. Can you recall what the speed of your locomotive was when you first noticed the truck in the crossing in front of you? MR. FLORES: Around between 77, 79 miles an hour. MR. SWEEDLER: About how far from the crossing could you estimate when you first noticed the truck in front of you? MR. FLORES: I just can't remember how far. MR. SWEEDLER: You indicated you applied the emergency brakes. Do you know if there was any perceptible slowing of the train at all before the impact? MR. FLORES: Well, if the train slowed down, it didn't slow down that much. MR. SWEEDLER: Have you had any training or guidance about what to do if you notice a large vehicle in front of you on the tracks? MR. FLORES: No; just blow the whistle and try to call his attention. That is it. MR. SWEEDLER: You did sound the whistle in this case? MR. FLORES: Sure, yes, sir. MR. SWEEDLER: You have not received any specific guidance about steps to take or actions to take? I guess it is what you said; it was just instinctive. MR. FLORES: That is correct. MR. SWEEDLER: Are you familiar with the Operation Lifesaver Program? MR. FLORES: Yes, I am. MR. SWEEDLER: Have you participated in that program? MR. FLORES: No, but I know it; I heard about it. MR. SWEEDLER: Thank you, sir. I appreciate your answers. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Mr. Harris, Claude Harris? MR. CLAUDE HARRIS: Good morning, Mr. Flores. One question: On your approach to the McKnight Road crossing, do you remember seeing any other vehicle traffic at this particular crossing? MR. FLORES: No, sir, I don't. MR. CLAUDE HARRIS: You just remember just the truck at the time of the accident? MR. FLORES: Yes, sir. MR. CLAUDE HARRIS: Thank you. MR. DUNN: Thank you. Mr. Flores, I know the locomotive turned over. How did you get out of there? MR. FLORES: Somebody helped me get out from under somehow. That is all I remember. MR. DUNN: Then you were transported to the hospital? MR. FLORES: Yes; that is what happened. MR. DUNN: Can you recall how long or were you passed out? MR. FLORES: I passed out several times probably. MR. DUNN: When did you start remembering things? In the hospital? MR. FLORES: Actually, I can't remember when I started remembering. MR. DUNN: Do you recall a fire at all? MR. FLORES: I recall a smell of some sort, probably fire, brakes, something. MR. DUNN: I have one final question, and I want to put you in an automobile. If you are driving your automobile and you come up to a crossing and the lights start flashing, what does that mean to you? MR. FLORES: Well, that there is something coming; there is a train coming. MR. DUNN: What do you do? MR. FLORES: I stay there until it clears. MR. DUNN: So, you would stop? MR. FLORES: That is correct. MR. DUNN: Have you ever gone around gates? MR. FLORES: Never. MR. DUNN: Thank you very much. Those are all the questions I have. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Mr. Lauby? MR. LAUBY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Flores, I have just a couple of clarification questions. As you approached the crossing at McKnight Road, did you ever see the truck driver? MR. FLORES: No, I didn't. MR. LAUBY: You never made eye contact or saw the truck driver look up the track or anything like that? MR. FLORES: No. MR. LAUBY: You only saw the truck; is that correct? MR. FLORES: Yes, that is correct; yes, sir. MR. LAUBY: You testified earlier that you had not had trucks running around gates at that particular crossing; is that correct? MR. FLORES: That is correct. MR. LAUBY: The McKnight Road crossing had a great deal of truck traffic. Was that considered to be any more hazardous than other crossings on this line? MR. FLORES: I could not tell you that. To me, a crossing is a crossing. You know, I have to be aware of every crossing. MR. LAUBY: There is no special concern by yourself or any of the engineers, other engineers that you talk to? MR. FLORES: No; I don't think so. MR. LAUBY: Between Chicago and Carbondale, are there any crossings that stand out in your mind as especially dangerous or a bigger problem than others? MR. FLORES: No. I can't recall that right now. MR. LAUBY: One other question about a derailment, and I understand this was a traumatic experience and you don't remember everything. Do you remember, after hitting the truck, anything that happened? MR. FLORES: No, I don't. MR. LAUBY: Do you remember at what point the locomotive derailed, or was it immediate? MR. FLORES: I don't think it was immediately, but that is the best I remember. It just took forever, you know, to me; and then everything went blank. MR. LAUBY: Thank you very much, Mr. Flores. No more questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Thank you, Mr. Lauby. Again, Mr. Flores, we appreciate your cooperation in this today. I know this is probably not an easy thing to do, and I can easily understand how you cannot recall individual elements as a person who is going along and everything is okay, and within literally a matter of seconds, things are not okay any more. I would like to ask you a couple of little questions here. One, you mentioned simulator training. Where did you have that simulator training? MR. FLORES: Topeka, Kansas. CHAIRMAN BLACK: I got to go through the one at Kansas City on the BNSF a few years ago. As a part of that training, do they simulate a railroad grade crossing accident? Do they have that capability? MR. FLORES: I can't remember that, if we have that in that simulator training program. CHAIRMAN BLACK: The other question I have is: When you saw the truck in this particular accident, and I think you said it was just coming on to the main line track ahead of you when you saw it, do you remember what color it was? MR. FLORES: No. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Did you, at that time, know from your experience that this was going to be a very severe problem? In other words, was your action from that point forward everything you could do to reduce the throttle, put the brakes on? In other words, when you first saw it, did you know you were in trouble? MR. FLORES: I kind of had a feeling that, you know, I need to apply the brakes as soon as possible. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Would your first action be to reduce the throttle and then go to the brakes? MR. FLORES: That is the common procedure, yes. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Thank you for your help in this. We appreciate your coming. Good luck. MR. FLORES: Thank you. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Any further questions from any parties? MR. WEEKS: I have no further questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Mr. Turpin? MR. TURPIN: I have no further questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Thank you, sir. (Witness excused.) CHAIRMAN BLACK: Let's take, at this point, a 15 minute break and reassemble here at about 20 minutes until the hour. (Recess from 10:16 a.m. to 10:39 a.m.) CHAIRMAN BLACK: We are progressing beyond our estimate in time, and we are going to have to take a witness out of order here because the witness that was originally scheduled isn't quite ready yet. So, Mr. Dunn, would you proceed. MR. DUNN: We are flip-flopping two witnesses. The National Transportation Safety Board calls Troy Schultz. SWORN TESTIMONY OF TROY SCHULTZ MR. DUNN: Mr. Schultz, for the record, would you please state and spell your entire name. MR. SCHULTZ: Troy Schultz; T-r-o-y, S-c-h-u-l-t-z. MR. DUNN: Mr. Schultz, were you in the vicinity of Bourbonnais on March 15th, 1999? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes, I was. MR. DUNN: Where were you? MR. SCHULTZ: I was at my job operating a crane. MR. DUNN: Where was that? MR. SCHULTZ: Simms Metal America in Kankakee, Illinois. MR. DUNN: Thank you very much. I will now turn the questioning over to Ruben Payan from the Technical Panel. EXAMINATION BY THE TECHNICAL PANEL MR. PAYAN: Good morning, Mr. Schultz. MR. SCHULTZ: Good morning. MR. PAYAN: Can we put Exhibit 2A up, please? I have several areas of questioning. On March 15th, do you remember what time you went on duty? MR. SCHULTZ: Seven o'clock. MR. PAYAN: Are those your normal working hours? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. PAYAN: What are your duties and responsibilities basically? MR. SCHULTZ: We load buckets for Birmingham Steel, which makes rebar and stuff. MR. PAYAN: On the screen, there is Exhibit 2A. Can you point out where your crane is located? MR. SCHULTZ: Let me see. I think it is right about there (indicating). MR. PAYAN: Can you describe it? MR. SCHULTZ: There it is. It is right here (indicating). MR. PAYAN: Can you describe the movements you perform when you are doing the normal operation of your crane? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. The bucket sits to the east of my crane, so I am looking, just like looking at that picture now where the crane is sitting. I pick up metal and drop it in the bucket. Periodically, I am facing away from this angle, but not too often. MR. PAYAN: Can you give an approximate amount of time required for you to perform each of those movements with your crane? MR. SCHULTZ: Anywhere from 10 seconds to 30 seconds. MR. PAYAN: 10 seconds, 20 seconds to do what? MR. SCHULTZ: Go from a drop and making a lift into the bucket to the piles and back to the bucket. MR. PAYAN: Is that about the same amount of time each time, or is there a significant difference? MR. SCHULTZ: It is about the same time. MR. PAYAN: From your operating position of the crane, can you estimate about how far you can see in all directions? You can use an exhibit if that helps. MR. SCHULTZ: You can see real far. I mean you are up in the air quite a ways, and you can see like all where people are standing on the crossing right there. You can see that. MR. PAYAN: Which railroad crossings can you see from your position? MR. SCHULTZ: I see right down here (indicating). There is nothing blocking the view. You see over the buildings pretty good. MR. PAYAN: Is that the only crossing you can see? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. The other crossing, which is a mile to the north, has grain elevators that block it. MR. PAYAN: Do you know the name of that crossing that is visible to you? MR. SCHULTZ: I do believe it was McKnight Road. MR. PAYAN: Is that railroad crossing illuminated in any way? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. I think I understand your question. MR. PAYAN: From the crane, you say you normally face towards the crossing? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes, I do. MR. PAYAN: Which way do you turn, or do you turn away from the crossing during your operation of the crane? MR. SCHULTZ: I will, we may, you know, the crane turns 360 degrees, so sometimes, I mean I will be spinning all the way completely around. MR. LAUBY: You asked a question about illumination. Would you please repeat that to make sure Mr. Schultz understood that question. MR. PAYAN: Okay. Can you recall if the railroad crossing is illuminated in any way? I mean street lights or outside illumination outside of the flashing lights. MR. SCHULTZ: No. You are talking if it is lit up in that area? MR. PAYAN: Yes. MR. SCHULTZ: No. For a long time, it has been pretty dark. It is hard to see. MR. PAYAN: There are no street lights or any -- MR. SCHULTZ: There are little ones in the parking lot and stuff, but right at the crossing, there is none. MR. PAYAN: Can you describe what you can see at the crossing when no trains are around there? How much detail can you see from your position of the crane? MR. SCHULTZ: You really can't. You can see the crossing gates when it is fairly dark, but otherwise, you really can't see; but when they light it up, you can see the crossing gates. MR. PAYAN: When it is dark, you can make out the gates? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. PAYAN: Do you normally observe trains through there? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. I see them come through all night long. MR. PAYAN: Do you make it a habit of looking at the crossings a lot? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. Usually, when you see the signals light up, I have a tendency to look around for a train to see where it is at. MR. PAYAN: Can you describe what you normally see at the crossing when a train is approaching? MR. SCHULTZ: Just usually the flashing lights. That is all. That is all you really can see. MR. PAYAN: Can you see the train before it gets to the crossing? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes; yes, you can. MR. PAYAN: About how far away? MR. SCHULTZ: Well, it would be, I don't know, three quarters of a mile heading north. Then just when it clears the edge of Birmingham's building when it is northbound, I can only see it about right here (indicating). MR. PAYAN: You said you can see the flashers. How about the gates? Can you see them when they are activated? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes, you can see them. MR. PAYAN: Can you make out if they are in the up position or down? MR. SCHULTZ: You could tell if they are up or down. MR. PAYAN: How about vehicles on the highway? Can you make out vehicles when it is either dark or illuminated? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes, you can see vehicles. MR. PAYAN: Can you distinguish what kind of vehicle it is? MR. SCHULTZ: What do you mean? MR. PAYAN: Just in general when you look at it. MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. PAYAN: You can? Okay. I would like to go back to the night of March 15th just prior to the accident. Can you tell us what you remember seeing? MR. SCHULTZ: I was in the middle of loading a bucket, and I was swinging north when I noticed the crossing lights come on. I looked to see where the train was and didn't notice nothing. A little bit farther up to the north, I saw it coming. There were railroad cars and stuff with a grain elevator, and that is when I noticed the train heading southbound. I made a lift of material and went back to the bucket. When I dropped it in, I kind of looked back up to see where the train was to see if I could see it. About that time, it was at the crossing, and that is when I noticed the impact. MR. PAYAN: You mentioned when you started you were facing north. You were looking at the crossing at that time? MR. SCHULTZ: I was, yes, facing northeast. MR. PAYAN: Is that the beginning of your movement to load stuff into the bucket? MR. SCHULTZ: It just depends what I am getting at the time. There are different kinds of metal. MR. PAYAN: Can you describe the amount of time or do you have an estimate of the time it took you to pick up the material, put it in the bucket, and turn around? MR. SCHULTZ: At that particular point right there, I would say 15 to 20 seconds, somewhere in that area. MR. PAYAN: You said you saw the lights. Did you see them activate or were they already activated when you saw them? MR. SCHULTZ: When I looked up, the lights, I just noticed they were on. MR. PAYAN: No train was visible yet? MR. SCHULTZ: I didn't see it at first, right. MR. PAYAN: Then you made your movement with the crane after you saw it? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. When I was making a lift, that is when I looked back up, and I noticed the train was on the tracks. MR. PAYAN: You looked away from the crossing? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. PAYAN: About how long did you turn away from the crossing? MR. SCHULTZ: I don't know. Maybe, I don't know, 10 seconds. It was not that long. MR. PAYAN: Then your movement then turned you back to the crossing? MR. SCHULTZ: I was turning from looking at the crossing to the bucket, which I was loading with strees (phonetic), but I could still see the crossing. I just, like, looked to my left a little bit back towards the crossing, and that is when I saw everything happen. MR. PAYAN: When you turned back, you were facing the crossing again after you finished putting the material in the bucket? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. I started to turn back that way (indicating). MR. PAYAN: Did you see the train then? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes, I saw the train before I even went to the bucket. MR. PAYAN: Could you estimate where the train was from the crossing? MR. SCHULTZ: Maybe half a mile maybe; I don't know even know if it was that far. MR. PAYAN: Half a mile from the crossing? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. PAYAN: Were the lights activated at that time, the flashers? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes, they were. MR. PAYAN: How about the gates? Could you see what position -- MR. SCHULTZ: I don't remember the gates. MR. PAYAN: Can you recall any vehicles near, on, or around the crossing? MR. SCHULTZ: At the time, I didn't, you know, see them. I don't pay attention to them I mean that good, and that night, I don't recall seeing any vehicles on their own tracks. MR. PAYAN: Can you tell us what you did after you saw the accident? MR. SCHULTZ: I got my radio, which I communicated with Birmingham Steel, the Mill Shop, and I started getting a hold of my melter. I told him that a train just crashed and there was a fire and to call 911. Then I noticed it was an Amtrak, and I let him know that too. MR. PAYAN: What did you do after that? MR. SCHULTZ: Shut my crane down and told my supervisor or lead man, and then I got down and proceeded to go over to help. MR. PAYAN: Did you make it to the site? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes, I did. MR. PAYAN: Can you describe what you saw and what you did? MR. SCHULTZ: I saw a lot of cars piled up, and there were people coming from all over. There were some Birmingham people coming out, and they started to cut open the fence which keeps us from the railroad tracks. We started getting them through the fence and into some of the buildings over there until medical help got there. MR. PAYAN: Did you have any conversations with the truck driver or anybody? MR. SCHULTZ: No, I didn't. MR. PAYAN: Can we get an exhibit? I don't know the number of the three shot view. CHAIRMAN BLACK: You might want to bring that exhibit between the Board and the witness panel here. MR. PAYAN: Can you describe what we are looking at, basically what you can see from here? MR. SCHULTZ: That is a view from where I sit in my crane. MR. PAYAN: What position is your crane in? MR. SCHULTZ: I am looking northeast right now. MR. PAYAN: Is the crane facing northeast, or are you seated northeast? MR. SCHULTZ: The crane is facing northeast. That thing that looks like a pole in between is -- MR. PAYAN: You can use the laser pointer if you would like. MR. SCHULTZ: Okay. This pole, that is called my dipper arm, and there is a grappler on the bottom which grabs the steel. So, that is how I was looking making a grab that night that, that happened. MR. PAYAN: Can you describe what we are looking at? MR. SCHULTZ: You are looking at the railroad crossing right on McKnight Road, I guess right where the accident happened. MR. PAYAN: Is that what you recall seeing? Is that about the field of view? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. PAYAN: What were the weather conditions on the night of the accident? MR. SCHULTZ: It was, I don't know, pretty clear. It was about just like what you are looking at right now. MR. PAYAN: About the same amount of light? MR. SCHULTZ: Well, there is more light on out there now. I don't know, but it used to be a little darker than that. MR. PAYAN: Thank you. Mr. Simon will have some questions for you. MR. SIMON: Hello, Mr. Schultz. MR. SCHULTZ: Hello. MR. SIMON: Can you tell us how far approximately the crane is from the McKnight Road crossing out there at the railroad? MR. SCHULTZ: I would say maybe three hundred yards. MR. SIMON: Did you see the truck that was involved in the collision with the train at any time prior to the impact with the train? MR. SCHULTZ: I think I saw something on the tracks just before impact, but it all happened so quick. MR. SIMON: Did you see the truck perhaps on the parking lot at Birmingham Steel or moving on McKnight Road at all? MR. SCHULTZ: No; I didn't notice any vehicles moving. MR. SIMON: At the time of the collision with the train, were you able, from your position, to determine where in the roadway the truck was? MR. SCHULTZ: No, I could not. MR. SIMON: You don't know if it was to the right or to the left or to the center of the road? MR. SCHULTZ: No. I could not tell where it was at. MR. SIMON: At the time you saw the truck, did you see brake lights illuminate on the truck? MR. SCHULTZ: No. I didn't observe anything about the truck at all. MR. SIMON: With respect to the truck, what were the positions or what was the position of the gates at the crossing at the time of the impact? MR. SCHULTZ: That night, I don't recall if the gates were up or down. MR. SIMON: What attracted your attention to the approach of the train other than the signal? Was there anything else? MR. SCHULTZ: No. MR. SIMON: Were you able to hear the approach of the train, perhaps the train's horn? MR. SCHULTZ: No, I didn't. I did not hear anything. MR. SIMON: In your position in the crane on previous occasions or any occasions since the night of the accident, have you observed the operation of those signals and other vehicles crossing at the McKnight Road grade crossing? MR. SCHULTZ: I didn't understand what you were asking me. MR. SIMON: I'm sorry. Have you observed the operation of the signals on previous occasions? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. SIMON: Have you observed vehicles, including truck traffic, cross the crossing on previous occasions? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. SIMON: Have you noticed anything unusual about the signals or about the use of the crossing by trucks or other vehicles on previous occasions? MR. SCHULTZ: No, nothing unusual. MR. SIMON: Have you ever seen an accident occur at the crossing prior to this one? MR. SCHULTZ: No, I have not. MR. SIMON: Since the accident, have you paid any attention to the traffic and the signals at the McKnight Road crossing? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. SIMON: What have you noticed, if anything? MR. SCHULTZ: I really have not noticed nothing new. MR. SIMON: The signals are operating in what you consider to be a normal fashion? MR. SCHULTZ: Well, they worked on them after the accident quite a bit. That is all I noticed, but I don't know if they were malfunctioning after if that is what you want to know. MR. SIMON: Are there any observations you might consider useful or helpful to us since the accident occurred? MR. SCHULTZ: No. MR. SIMON: How was it you came forward to get in touch with the Safety Board and describe your observations to us? MR. SCHULTZ: I don't know. I thought it was the right thing to do, to come forward. MR. SIMON: Thank you, Mr. Schultz. I don't have any other questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Mr. Payan? MR. PAYAN: Those are all the questions at this time. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Mr. Blackmore? MR. BLACKMORE: No questions at this time. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Mr. Umbs? MR. UMBS: I have a couple of questions if I may ask them. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Certainly. EXAMINATION BY THE FEDERAL HIGHWAY ADMINISTRATION MR. UMBS: The photos, are they true to life, the color photo, the range? Is that exactly what it looked like, or is it closer? MR. SCHULTZ: I can't see the photo. That is just about exactly what I see, yes. MR. UMBS: True to life? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Mr. Umbs, let me interpose here. That is a question I had also, and I have been assured that is about a 50 millimeter lens in a 35 millimeter film format, which is about normal human eye. So, we thought about that. MR. UMBS: Have you ever seen any vehicles going around the gate? MR. SCHULTZ: I have never noticed none. MR. UMBS: Thank you. CHAIRMAN BLACK: The Illinois Commerce Commission? MR. STEAD: No questions at this time. CHAIRMAN BLACK: The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers? EXAMINATION BY THE BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS MR. WALPERT: Yes, we have a few questions. Mr. Schultz, you said you did not hear the whistle blowing on the train; is that correct? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. WALPERT: Did you hear the explosion or impact? MR. SCHULTZ: No, I did not; I did not hear any noises that night at all. MR. WALPERT: Can you state the distance in yards that the crane is from the crossing? MR. SCHULTZ: About three hundred. MR. WALPERT: Three hundred yards? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. WALPERT: I see that you are wearing glasses. Do you have a particular vision problem that the glasses correct? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. WALPERT: Can you tell us what that is? MR. SCHULTZ: I am not sure what condition my eyes were in. MR. WALPERT: Were you wearing your glasses at the time? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes, I was. MR. WALPERT: You also stated you could not see northward on McKnight Road due to the rail cars were parked? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. WALPERT: Is that correct? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. They had some scattered up and down the track there. MR. WALPERT: You said you saw the train about a quarter of a mile from the crossing when you first noticed it; is that correct? MR. SCHULTZ: No. I saw it. It would be up probably, it would be at least half a mile up when I noticed it. MR. WALPERT: Half a mile? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes, the first time. MR. WALPERT: The cars parked near the grain elevator did not obstruct your view at that point? MR. SCHULTZ: It was obstructed, I can't remember exactly where, but I did, could see the train at one time. MR. WALPERT: You could see the train? Did you see the headlight of the train first or the actual train? MR. SCHULTZ: I noticed the headlight. MR. WALPERT: You noticed the headlight first? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. WALPERT: That is all I have for now. Thank you. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Thank you. The United Transportation Union? MR. DWYER: No questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Melco? EXAMINATION BY MELCO TRANSFER, INC. MR. MARSHALL: I just have two questions. Troy, when you saw the impact, did you see the impact, or did you see the glow of the flash? What was the first thing you saw? MR. SCHULTZ: I can't recall exactly what I saw right at the impact. That happened really fast. MR. MARSHALL: When you are up in your position in the crane on a normal night, when trains come through there, can you normally hear the horn on the train? MR. SCHULTZ: You can kind of hear the whistle at times. That night, I do believe there was a wind blowing northeast, and that might have been why I didn't hear anything. MR. MARSHALL: That is all I have got at this time. Thank you, Troy. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Amtrak? EXAMINATION BY AMTRAK MR. BULLOCK: Hello, Troy. My name is Lee Bullock. First of all, I would like to say thank you very much for your assistance on March 15th with our customers and with our employees. We deeply appreciate that, and we appreciate you coming forward to tell us what you saw of this tragedy. A couple of points of clarification for me: You said when you are in your work location, you cannot see the grade crossing that is next to north of the McKnight grade crossing; and you thought that was about a mile north or something, but that you could see up to the grain elevators. I am trying to get a sense of how far are the grain elevators up from the McKnight crossing. MR. SCHULTZ: I am not sure how far that distance is. I don't know if it is even a mile. MR. BULLOCK: Would you say it is at least a half a mile? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. I mean I am not sure if that is a half mile of road or a mile in between both roads. I could see the train halfway, but the grain elevator itself is up on -- is it Saint George's Road? MR. BULLOCK: When you saw the train, first of all, you said often you see the lights and that triggers your attention that a train is coming, and you saw the lights on the grade crossing activate first. Is that what caught your attention first? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. I just noticed they were on. MR. BULLOCK: You noticed they were on? That was the point you started looking for a train? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. BULLOCK: Then you looked up and you saw a train. Where was the train at that point with reference to the grain elevators? MR. SCHULTZ: It would have been just maybe a couple of hundred yards only past the grain elevator where I was able to see. MR. BULLOCK: Just south? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes, just south. MR. BULLOCK: Mr. Chairman, I would appreciate if -- I am trying to get a sense, and I understand Troy is try trying to recollect the best he can -- just so I have a sense and we have a sense, I believe, if I am not correct, Troy, you said it was about 15 or 20 seconds after you saw the train that somewhere in the range of 15 or 20 seconds that you looked back again, and then you subsequently saw the collision? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. BULLOCK: I would ask Mr. Chairman if we could stop for that short 20 seconds and just observe for our own observation how long that 20 second period if that is all right. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Are you asking that we time 20 seconds out? MR. BULLOCK: That is what I am asking. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Are you ready? MR. BULLOCK: Yes, sir, let's say now. (20 Second Pause.) MR. BULLOCK: 20 seconds is up. Troy, would you say that is approximately the time you think elapsed would you say? MR. SCHULTZ: It would be pretty close to it. MR. BULLOCK: Thank you. I don't have any further questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Thank you, sir. The Canadian National/Illinois Central? MR. ED HARRIS: Hi, Troy. I am Ed Harris, Vice-President of the Midwest Division for the CNCI. Again, I would like to second Mr. Bullock's comments. Your quick actions on the 911 call and emergency response time you folks started were very exemplary. That is a straight-forward comment and attributable to your operation of quick actions. Again, I express that for myself and the train as well. Troy, do you remember, from your perch up there on that crane, what we call a security light that burns in the evening hours next to the signal house? That would be just northwest of the crossing itself. MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. ED HARRIS: That light was illuminated that night? Do you recall that? MR. SCHULTZ: I do believe it was. MR. ED HARRIS: Troy, you also mentioned, from your position on that crane, you noticed the activation of the lights, the crossing lights themselves, and then looked back towards the north. I would assume you saw the glow of the headlight. Would that be a correct statement? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. The first time I looked, I did not see nothing, but I was in the middle of doing my job. I just glanced, and I didn't see nothing. Then I did look a couple of seconds later and saw it. MR. ED HARRIS: You saw the glow of the headlight after you took a second glance; is that correct? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. ED HARRIS: This was, again, after the activation of the crossing lights themselves? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. ED HARRIS: Once you saw that glow of the headlight and the flashing lights working, you proceeded to pick up your bucket of scrap, and this is the 20 second time frame that you went over and released this bucket back into the hopper that you dump the scrap into; is that correct? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. ED HARRIS: When you came back over, that is approximately when you saw the accident take place? MR. SCHULTZ: Well, I started, when I noticed it, I had started to make the grab. Then I dropped it off, spun to my right, and dropped it off. Then I didn't even really turn my crane. I just kind of looked up, and that is when I saw it all happen. MR. ED HARRIS: This may be a bit of a reiteration of an earlier question, but I want to make sure I understood your response. This is in result of a statement you made that week after the accident itself. Do you recall in that statement that from the illumination of the headlight from the Amtrak train, that you did see the impact of the engine to the rear axle of that truck? MR. SCHULTZ: I do. I am pretty sure that, that is what I saw, and it was getting, at the time, I was not positive, but I mean I know it hit something. I could not tell at the time if it hit a car or what it was. I saw something. MR. ED HARRIS: Troy, those are all the questions I have. Thank you. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Thank you, sir. Dr. Sweedler? EXAMINATION BY THE BOARD OF INQUIRY MR. SWEEDLER: Mr. Schultz, welcome. Were you involved in the post-accident tests to determine the different sight lines and what you saw on the night of the accident, post-accident tests? MR. SCHULTZ: I was not -- I don't know. I am not sure if that is the same. MR. SWEEDLER: Did they actually try to simulate after the accident, a few days later, just what you might have seen? Were you involved in those tests? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes; I was there. MR. SWEEDLER: What they were actually simulating, did that seem pretty close to what the conditions were the night of the accident? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. SWEEDLER: Thank you. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. MR. CLAUDE HARRIS: Good morning, Mr. Schultz. Two questions to you: You mentioned earlier in your testimony that you observed the truck departing the Birmingham Steel parking lot and heading toward the grade crossing. Did you observe any activities of the truck before it departed the parking lot? MR. SCHULTZ: I didn't understand you. MR. CLAUDE HARRIS: Did you see the truck before it departed the parking lot en route to the grade crossing? MR. SCHULTZ: No, I did not. MR. CLAUDE HARRIS: Did you observe any other trucks in that parking lot at the time? MR. SCHULTZ: No. I think there were some trailers parked over there, but I am not sure if there were any trucks. I mean there are always trucks over there, but that night, I don't recall if there were any in the parking lot or not. MR. CLAUDE HARRIS: Just to clarify it in my mind, you mentioned earlier that you did not see any other vehicle activity other than the truck on McKnight Road prior to the collision? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. I didn't see anything. I didn't see any vehicles that night. MR. CLAUDE HARRIS: Thank you. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Mr. Lauby? (No response.) CHAIRMAN BLACK: Mr. Dunn? MR. DUNN: Thank you. Mr. Schultz, I know I was in that crane and a lot of others were, and we did do the tests. How high in the air are you when you are sitting in that bucket? MR. SCHULTZ: Fifty feet off the ground maybe. MR. DUNN: Could you describe what the explosion or fire looked like, how high in the air. Would you go through that for me. MR. SCHULTZ: It was almost out of my view. When all the cars were finally coming to a rest, I noticed a fire. It started to get bright, and then I noticed an explosion and the fire. Then a good sized fire ball rose about a hundred to 150 feet in the air. MR. DUNN: This wasn't at the time right at the collision; this was seconds later? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes, maybe a few seconds later. MR. DUNN: I would like to talk a little bit about the emergency response. If you would, could you put up Exhibit 2A for me? I would like you to use your laser. I know you climbed out of the crane and went to assist. Could you show me the route you took? I know you described it to us, but I didn't understand it too well, but this way, I definitely will if you will show me how you got to the accident. MR. SCHULTZ: I came down, I do believe it is right here, this road (indicating), which comes around. I went around the buildings, and I came out right over in here. MR. DUNN: You said you helped take some of the passengers out of the train? MR. SCHULTZ: Well, I didn't help take them out of the train. There were other people, but they were all coming up to the fence there, and we helped them cross the ditch. Then some of them, the kind of critical ones, we helped in the trailer, helped them into the trailer we have over there. MR. DUNN: From the time you started to help, how soon was the first emergency responders up? Besides the police and maybe the first ambulance, how much time elapsed? MR. SCHULTZ: Eight minutes maybe; I am not sure. Everything was going pretty quick. MR. DUNN: It was pretty quick they were there? MR. SCHULTZ: It seemed like it. I am not sure how long it took them though. MR. DUNN: Did you tell me that you were a volunteer fireman also? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes, I am. MR. DUNN: Were you able to observe the emergency responders' actions? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. I observed the first engine that got down to the scene. MR. DUNN: Did you take exception to anything they were doing, or did they appear to be doing what they should be? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. They got there, the engine, and they went right to attack the fire that was on the one locomotive. MR. DUNN: Were the Birmingham employees at all in the way or being asked to get away from the scene at all? Did you hear any of that? MR. SCHULTZ: I never heard anything. MR. DUNN: I guess you cross the crossing once each day about five days a week I guess or twice. MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. I cross it twice three to five days a week. MR. DUNN: You have never seen anybody go around the gates at all? MR. SCHULTZ: No, not this one. MR. DUNN: What do you do when you see a flashing light at the railroad crossing? I asked the engineer what he does in his vehicle. What does it mean to you when you are coming up on a crossing and you see the lights start to flash? What does that tell you as a driver? MR. SCHULTZ: There is a train coming and to stop. MR. DUNN: Not hurry up and go, but stop? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes, stop. MR. DUNN: That is what you do? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. DUNN: Last question: Did you know truck driver? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes; I do know him. MR. DUNN: Did you have a conversation with him the night of the accident? MR. SCHULTZ: No, I did not. MR. DUNN: Have you had conversations with him since the accident? MR. SCHULTZ: No, I have not. MR. DUNN: In what way did you know him? MR. SCHULTZ: He is a friend of my dad's. MR. DUNN: I have no further questions. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Mr. Lauby? MR. LAUBY: Just a few more questions, Mr. Schultz. Can you tell me just a little bit more about your job as a crane operator? Basically, what are your duties throughout a typical day? MR. SCHULTZ: We get scrap in from the different local scrap yards, and we put it in sorted piles for loading different menus, different kinds of steel for the steel mill. We load buckets all day long for the steel mill. MR. LAUBY: How many buckets would you say you load in a typical day? MR. SCHULTZ: It ranges up to, say, 17 of them a day. MR. LAUBY: The movement you were making at the time of the collision -- I guess you were picking up metal from one pile and dropping it into the bucket -- you do that all day long throughout your shift or most of the day? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. You do that throughout the entire day until you are relieved by the next crew that comes in to work. MR. LAUBY: How long have you been doing this? How many years? MR. SCHULTZ: About four and a half. MR. LAUBY: These movements you make, do you do them fairly consistently? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. LAUBY: There is a certain time that you know that you can fill a bucket? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. It takes you about the same amount of time every time to load a bucket. MR. LAUBY: How much time would that be about? MR. SCHULTZ: It takes you probably 20 minutes. MR. LAUBY: How many of these movements would be required to fill a bucket? MR. SCHULTZ: 40, 50. MR. LAUBY: 40, 50 movements? MR. SCHULTZ: Movements, uh-huh. MR. LAUBY: After the accident, you met with some Safety Board investigators at the crane; is that correct? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. LAUBY: During that meeting, what was done up on the crane? MR. SCHULTZ: They wanted to see what I do at my job and the way I was positioned and what I saw. MR. LAUBY: Were the movements made that you made the night of the accident, were those recreated during that meeting? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. LAUBY: The movement from picking up a piece of metal from one pile and dropping into the bucket, was that recreated? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. LAUBY: During this period, times were registered. To the best of your knowledge, were those times accurate with the movements you made the night of the accident? MR. SCHULTZ: Probably, yes; yes, they were. MR. LAUBY: I want to ask just a couple of other questions. One thing that you remarked the night of the test was that the oil was not heated up. What did you mean by that statement? MR. SCHULTZ: When it is cold out, they have a heater that heats all the hydraulic equipment, and it helps the crane move a little faster. When the oil is cold and thick, the turning of the cylinders don't move real fast. It slows it down just a little bit. MR. LAUBY: Typically, when you are loading a bucket, is the oil heated up by the movement? MR. SCHULTZ: No. There is a regular heater that is inside. I don't know how to explain it. There is like, say the oil heater is on. There is like a rod in the oil that warms the tank up that holds like three hundred gallons. MR. LAUBY: On the night of the accident, do you remember if the crane was moving freely or whether it was delayed? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes, it was moving freely. MR. LAUBY: It was moving freely on the night of the accident? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. LAUBY: Do you normally watch trains as they go through this area? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. LAUBY: Do you kind of keep tabs on freight trains and Amtrak trains as they move through? MR. SCHULTZ: No, not really. You sit up there all night by yourself, so you just, when something exciting goes by, you watch. MR. LAUBY: How do you first know that a train is coming if you are up in the crane? What happens first? MR. SCHULTZ: Usually, the warning lights will go on. That is what catches your attention. That is about it. MR. LAUBY: Do you monitor the movement of the train as you are doing your work? MR. SCHULTZ: Sometimes. MR. LAUBY: In this particular case, what caught your attention to begin with? MR. SCHULTZ: I just noticed the lights. I don't know what caught my attention. I just looked and saw it. MR. LAUBY: You noticed the lights, you made a movement, and then you looked back and you saw the accident; is that correct? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. LAUBY: Again, following up on just a couple of things that Mr. Dunn brought up. You use this crossing twice a day to go to work and to go home; is that correct? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. MR. LAUBY: Did you ever see anything unusual at this crossing? MR. SCHULTZ: No. MR. LAUBY: Any failures or trains going by with the gates up or the lights off, anything like that? MR. SCHULTZ: No. There has been, the gates have been down before with the lights on. MR. LAUBY: Have you heard any of your colleagues at work complaining about this problem, sir? MR. SCHULTZ: No. MR. LAUBY: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN BLACK: First of all, I, like Amtrak and the Railroad said, I would like to thank you for being a good citizen and coming forward that night and also to help us today. I have a couple of summary questions here. I will make sure that everyone understands me and everyone else understands exactly what we are talking about here. You have crane that -- and I am going to use my arm -- you pick stuff out of one pile here. That is the scrap metal; is that right? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Then you move it over and put it in a bucket? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Then you go back and get another one? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN BLACK: That is what they timed as the time from here to here and back to here? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN BLACK: I want to make sure everyone understands that. Where is the engine that drives the crane? Is that under you, behind you, on the ground, or where? MR. SCHULTZ: It is behind me. CHAIRMAN BLACK: It is directly behind you? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Is it very loud? MR. SCHULTZ: No, it is not. It is loud, but you know, you can still hear what is going on around you. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Is it diesel or gasoline? MR. SCHULTZ: It is an electric motor. CHAIRMAN BLACK: It is electric? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN BLACK: I see. MR. SCHULTZ: It runs on a hydraulic pump. That is all it is used for. It is an electric motor. CHAIRMAN BLACK: There is an electric driven hydraulic pump? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Do you normally work the night watch or night shift? MR. SCHULTZ: It is a swing shift. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Can you tell when the gates are up on one of these photographs over here? When the gates are up, but the lights are on, on the gates, can you actually see that? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. CHAIRMAN BLACK: You can distinguish the difference between they are up or they are down by those lights? MR. SCHULTZ: Yes, you can. CHAIRMAN BLACK: For the record, I think we measured the distance. Jay, wasn't it about 1,400 and some odd feet? MR. LAUBY: I believe it was 1,700 feet. CHAIRMAN BLACK: 1,700 from the crossing? So, that three hundred yards is about right. That is all I have. Any further? (No response.) CHAIRMAN BLACK: You are excused. Thank you very much for coming. (Witness excused.) CHAIRMAN BLACK: We will take about a five minute break here while we get our next witness lined up. (Recess from 11:31 a.m. to 11:34 a.m.) CHAIRMAN BLACK: Could you bring your next witness, please. MR. DUNN: The National Transportation Safety Board calls its next witness, Ms. Cathi S. Oliver. SWORN TESTIMONY OF CATHI S. OLIVER MR. DUNN: Ms. Oliver, for the record, would you please state your full name and spell it for us. MS. OLIVER: Cathi S. Oliver, C-a-t-h-i, S., Oliver, O-l-i-v-e-r. MR. DUNN: Who are you employed by? MS. OLIVER: Amtrak. MR. DUNN: As? MS. OLIVER: An On-board Services Train Attendant. MR. DUNN: How long have you done that? MS. OLIVER: Since I was hired January 18th of this year. MR. DUNN: Were you working on Amtrak Train Number 59 on March 15, 1999? MS. OLIVER: Yes, I was. MR. DUNN: Thank you very much. I will turn the questioning over to our Technical Panel, Mr. Richard Downs. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Before we start, could you introduce who you have accompanying you there? MS. OLIVER: This is Dave White, the Product Line Manager for the City of New Orleans, and Noreen Ellis (phonetic), Manager of Employee Communications. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Welcome too. EXAMINATION BY THE TECHNICAL PANEL MR. DOWNS: Thank you, Member Black. Good morning, Ms. Oliver. MS. OLIVER: Good morning. MR. DOWNS: Thanks again very much for appearing here today. We understand this is a very trying time for you, but we do very much appreciate your testimony here. First off, I would like to get into a little bit of background. Would you tell us something about your professional background and training at Amtrak. I am talking about training you might have done as part of your preparations for your position. MS. OLIVER: They have an in-classroom training where you learn the technical, literal side of the training; and then they also have on-the-job where they take you into the cars, each of the cars, and do different training exercises with you in there also. MR. DOWNS: This is a pretty extensive program that goes on for several weeks? MS. OLIVER: Yes. MR. DOWNS: As part of the training, is there role-playing that goes on at all? Do they have actors or anything like that, or is there just an instructor that gives you -- MS. OLIVER: The instructor does the in-classroom training with you. Then he takes you out on to the train, and veteran employees of the crew based where I work at, they come and do simulated things with you, simulated, you know, accidents and injuries, things like that. First, they test your reaction. Then they go about showing you the right way to handle the situation. MR. DOWNS: In your estimation, it was pretty extensive? MS. OLIVER: Yes. MR. DOWNS: Was there any emergency situations training as part of that? MS. OLIVER: Yes. MR. DOWNS: Let's go back a little bit just prior to the accident on the particular day on the City of New Orleans train. Can you give us a little bit of a rundown of what occurred on that particular day -- was it a routine departure, things of that sort, just point-by-point -- as best you can recall? MS. OLIVER: We arrived like we normally do to get the train, the cars, get each of the cars set up; got our instructions from our conductors; went about loading our passengers when it was time; got everybody settled in. I think we were a few minutes late leaving the station, but nothing out of the ordinary. MR. DOWNS: Nothing that really stretched the schedule because there is, I presume, time built into the schedule, that sort of thing? MS. OLIVER: Yes; we have time built in. MR. DOWNS: Would you characterize this as pretty much a routine -- MS. OLIVER: Yes. MR. DOWNS: -- departure that particular day, nothing out of the ordinary? MS. OLIVER: No. MR. DOWNS: As a train attendant, your attention is what, to one or two cars? On this particular day, what was your job assignment? MS. OLIVER: I was to work what we call short-haul coaches, and I had the 30 car and the 31 car. MR. DOWNS: Was the train pretty much full that particular day? MS. OLIVER: My two cars were pretty full, but they usually are at the beginning of the trip. MR. DOWNS: Normally, how many train attendants are on a routine run like this total, five or ten, something like that? MS. OLIVER: Just train attendants or -- MR. DOWNS: Train attendants, right. MS. OLIVER: -- or service attendants also? MR. DOWNS: Well, yes, the full breakdown if you can recall the numbers. MS. OLIVER: Approximately, I think eight to ten. MR. DOWNS: That is a typical set-up for that particular train? MS. OLIVER: Yes. MR. DOWNS: As the train was approaching Bourbonnais, can you give us kind of a point-by-point of your activities that you were involved in on that particular day as best as you can recall? MS. OLIVER: Before we got to Bourbonnais? MR. DOWNS: Just before the accident. Were you working the car? Were you on break? MS. OLIVER: I was supposed to go to break and eat my dinner because the other attendant, once we let people off at one of our next stops, she would go down for the night, and then I would be up until one in the morning; but I decided to go ahead and go on back and help her load at Kankakee because there was just a few and then I would go eat. So, I went down to take my break and to smoke a cigarette because the car that we load them on to is where the smoking car is also located. MR. DOWNS: You were on the lower level lounge at that particular time? MS. OLIVER: Yes. MR. DOWNS: Normally, you might be, say, taking your dinner break, but just by happenstance, you happened to -- MS. OLIVER: Yes. MR. DOWNS: -- with somebody else? If you could, continue a little bit on that point. You were having your cigarette with a few fellow passengers I presume. MS. OLIVER: Yes. I was talking to some of my passengers that were down there with me, and they, you know, were telling me their destinations. They were asking me questions about what it was like to work for Amtrak and just chitchat, you know, watching the time waiting to get into Kankakee. MR. DOWNS: Nothing out of the ordinary in the course of the conversation -- MS. OLIVER: No. MR. DOWNS: -- just sitting around lounging around, and all of a sudden, all heck broke loose? MS. OLIVER: Basically, it started, the tracks started to, I don't know, it was just like a sudden jerk. MR. DOWNS: Were you tossed about the car a little bit with some of your fellow passengers there? MS. OLIVER: Just a minute. MR. DOWNS: Certainly. MS. OLIVER: We were sitting there, and then it felt like a jerk. Then the tracks felt like they were getting really rough. Then I could feel -- it felt like the brakes had been, the emergency brakes had been put on. We had to do that once before on another one. All of a sudden, I grabbed on to the seat and the table where I was sitting at, and I started hollering at my passengers to hold on. The lights were flashing on and off, and people were starting to -- MR. DOWNS: That is quite all right. We will move on at this point. CHAIRMAN BLACK: Let me interrupt. Take as much time as you need. We understand, so don't worry about that at all. MR. DOWNS: Let's change the subject a little bit, Ms. Oliver. Do you remember which car this was, how far back from the locomotive? It was the smoking car I believe you mentioned. MS. OLIVER: Seventh; it was either the seventh or eighth car back from the -- I mean if you get the close up area, I can show you exactly what car I was on. MR. DOWNS: Would you like to see one of the exhibits? MS. OLIVER: Yes. MR. DOWNS: Let's put up Exhibit 2B. That is the close-up aerial view. That is our aerial view there, and just to refresh your memory, we have the grade crossing on the right there. We have the number of cars lined up more or less on the track. There are about four of them kind of in alignment. Then you have the cars that turned and zigzagged. I believe the smoking coach was the first one that started to zigzag. MS. OLIVER: That one (indicating). That is the car I was on. MR. DOWNS: It sounds like it was a pretty harrowing time. When everything came to rest and the dust started to settle, maybe you can give us some thoughts as to what occurred next. I presume there were some passengers that were petty shaken up along with yourself. MS. OLIVER: As soon as we stopped moving and I realized I was not dead, I got up and ran out and hit my blower; went up the stairs screaming at people asking if everybody was okay; and went towards the front of the car. When I got to the front, there were no cars in front of us. I had passengers behind me hollering and screaming, and we were all trying to figure out what happened. I had one passenger, I had told him to stay by that front and not let anybody past it because there were no cars in front of us and it is a long drop. I went back to the back. There were passengers in the lounge car, which was right behind us, and he was by the door. He helped me get across into the lounge car because one the first things in training is you don't open the doors and just automatically jump out because you don't know where you at. He helped me to cross into the lounge car. I was hollering at them asking them if they were okay and if anybody was injured, please speak up. I went down the stairs, and by then, Tim, the LSA, our Lounge Service Attendant, he was already outside and helping his passengers off. He